Christian sanity
Dave Gaban errancy@infidels.org
Sat, 29 May 1999 01:37:19 -0700 (00927985039, 374FA73F.722D@slip.net)
Josh P Livingston wrote:
>
> Hi Dave and Farrell,
>
> >>> >SHAWN B
> >>> >>God was obviously not concerned with a king who already had a
> >>> >hardened
> >>> >>heart.
> >>> >
> >>> >TILL
> >>> >How do you know that Pharaoh's "already had a hardened heart."
> >Your
> >>> >inspired, inerrant word of God clearly teaches that Yahweh
> >hardened
> >>> >Pharaoh's heart. See a posting that I sent earlier today on this
> >>> >subject.
> >>> >You may also want to consider another passage in your inspired
> >word of
> >>> >God.
> >>> >
> >>> >>Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this
> >same
> >>> >purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee,
> >and
> >>> >that
> >>> >my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
> >>> >>18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
> >he
> >>> >will he
> >>> >hardeneth.
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >This poor sap Pharaoh didn't stand a chance, because he was just
> >a
> >>> >helpless
> >>> >tool that the omnimax Yahweh used as an excuse to show his stuff.
> >>> >
> >>> LIVINGSTON
> >>> Actually, Shawn does have a point. Up through the fifth
> >plague,
> >Exodus
> >>> says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex. 7-9). It wasn't
> >until the
> >>> sixth plague that God had to start lending a hand in hardening
> >Pharoahs
> >>> heart (Ex. 9).
> >>>
> >>> Sincerely,
> >>> Josh Livingston
> >>
> >>Dave G.
> >>Sorry Josh, but if you will check: Exodus 4:21 The Lord said to
> >Moses,
> >>When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all
> >the
> >>wonders I have given you the power to do. BUT I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART
> >SO
> >>THAT HE WILL NOT LET THEM GO...<SNIP>, you will notice God has
> >already
> >>said (before ANY plague has been sent) that he (God) will harden
> >>Pharaoh's heart.
> >>
> >
> >TILL
> >That statement was repeated in Exodus 7:2-3 before the plagues had
> >begun:
> >"You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall
> >tell
> >Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land. But I will harden
> >Pharaoh's heart, and I will multiply my signs and wonders in the land
> >of Egypt."
> >
> >Did Yahweh "multiply" signs and wonders in the land of Egypt or did he
> >just
> >allow them to happen? If he multiplied signs and wonders, why should
> >we not
> >understand that he hardened pharaoh's heart?
>
> LIVINGSTON
> God forsaw that Pharoah would harden his heart at first, and said that
> he would make sure that it stayed hard until He decided his judgement was
> over.
Dave G.
So what you are saying is, God knew there was a high probability that
Pharoah would have submitted to Moses' request and would have freed
"his people" without any further plagues, but God wanted to make 'em
suffer anyway unnecessarily. Do I undersand you correctly?
LIVINGSTON
> Both of those verses could be read to mean that God will harden
> Pharoah's heart in the future, not necessarily every time that Moses
> spoke to Pharoah.
Dave G.
Unless you have something to base your assertion on, this is no more
than
your personal opinion and a rationalization based on a need to harmonize
a problem with the "god inspired" book of Exodus.
LIVINGSTON
> After all, in at least a couple of the earlier plagues
> it says explicitly that Pharaoh hardened his heart.
> In Ex. 4:21 God was referring to the last plague, read v. 22,23; so we could > regard Pharoah as already being a hardened man in this verse.
Dave G.
And you base this on....? The plagues had not occurred yet!!!!!!!!
A more logical reading of Exodus 4, as it would later pertain to Exodus
7-11
is that God was doing the "all the hardening". God made no mention in
Exodus 4
of Pharoah doing any heart hardening of his own, GOD said HE (GOD) would
harden
Pharoah's heart.
LIVINGSTON
> Their are some other problems with using the example of Pharoah as an
> argument free will in the Bible. It seems that God exercises special
> control over the actions of rulers that would effect their kingdom (Pr.
> 21:1). However, we might say that God doesn't interfere with their
> ability to choose their "eternal destiny".
Dave G.
God is the "puppet master" of a number of evil rulers listed in the
bible? Is that what you are saying?