IMMATERIAL = NO GOD
Brian Malcolm errancy@infidels.org
Sat, 8 May 1999 09:02:46 -0700 (00926197366, 000801be996c$36ed6d80$0700640b@sttls1.wa.home.com)
CARTER
<snip>
Truth however, is in an entirely different catagory. It is impossible to
deny it's existence without affirming it. (again, the example of: "I deny
that I exist.").
<snip>
While I have not yet thought it out completely, I am even pondering if
truth is a neccessary being. God cannot be proved to be a neccessary being,
because
we can conceive of Him as not existing. However, truth, CANNOT be conceived
not to exist.
POOBAH
I have no idea what "truth" is. I can certainly conceive of it not existing.
I program computers daily, and deal with "truth" & "logic" constantly, but
it's obvious to me that "truth" is not a concept that exists outside of the
realm of formal logic.
Therefore since I can conceive of truth not existing, it must not be
necessary.
Have you stopped beating your wife yet, Jason, true or false? Everyone's
world isn't the duality that your
Babylonian-Judeo-Christian-Platonic-Aristolean-Medieval worldview would make
it out to be.
There's an old saying that every statement is true in someway, false in
someway, both true & false in someway, and neither true nor false in
someway. Let me try to demonstrate that with a little quiz (courtesy of
Robert Anton Wilson). Answer each of the following true or false:
1. People see many unicorns.
2. Water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit
3. People see many unicorns in European zoological gardens.
4. This test consists of 26 statements for the reader to evaluate.
5. pq=qp
6. People in European mythology see many unicorns
7. Behind the Green Door is an erotic movie
8. George Washington served as President of the U.S. between 1932 and 1938.
8. People see UFOs almost every day
9. Garlic smells awful
10. Garlic smells awful to me
11. All statements in this test are false.
12. Behind the Green Door is a pornographic movie
13. Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
14. Congress has the right to coin money and regulate the value thereof.
15. Statements 4 and 11 are both true.
16. Behind the Green Door is a sexist movie.
17. The Nazis killed 6,000,000 Jews
18. The Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals
19. Colorless green ideas sleep furiously
20. God has appeared to me
21. After I dropped Acid, the whole universe was transformed
22. Punk Rock is as good as Beethoven
23. Francis Bacon wrote the plays attributed to Shakespeare
24. Jesse Helms wrote the plays attributed to Shakespeare
25. Hitler only had one testicle
26. The temple is holy because it is not for sale
27. This whole test is a sneaky way of undermining faith in either/or logic.
CARTER
Even if NOTHING existed, it would be TRUE that "NOTHING EXISTS". Therefore,
I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to conceive of truth as anything but a
neccessary being, which cannot, in any possible world, NOT exist.
Does falseness exist? Notice how I am using the definition of truth. Truth
is positively synonymous with "what is", or "reality". What is false would
be concepts/claims that DO NOT apply to reality. Ie., untruth does not
have a REAL existence, because it is an absence of what is true.
To say that an "UNCARTER" exists is not to affirm the *real existence* of
the *non-existence* of me, it is only to affirm the absence of my existence.
POOBAH
You need to get out of your spook-filled Platonic world a bit more.
Nonetheless, I find it sad & ironic that we wouldn't be having this
discussion if Jesus had simply answered Pilate when he asked, "What is
truth?" I know that many have said that if & when they came face to face
with their creator, there's one or two questions they would like to ask him.
Here was poor Pilate, he was, he asked, and that sonovaspirit didn't answer.
Perhaps he didn't answer because even he didn't know?
(Personally, I find that one of the most poetically beautiful & ironic
portions of the Bible. Perhaps reality isn't as simple as you think, Jason.
Not even to your God).