Sherman's "Prophecies"
David Lee ronie@InfoAVE.net
Wed, 03 Mar 1999 22:35:43 -0500 (00920540143, 000201be65f2$1c2f3760$915c74cc@ronies)
Hi Bakke! Hi Group!
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Bakke <mlbakke1@earthlink.net>
To: <errancy@infidels.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 7:23 PM
Subject: Sherman's "Prophecies"
>BAKKE
>I'm sure we've all seen most of this "prophecy" nonsense elsewhere on
>numerous occasions and it has always failed. Sherman's particular spin
>on the old chestnuts just adds mathematical absurdities to the other
>problems. Since he purports to find the total odds against one man
>fulfilling all of these prophecies, to successfully debunk his logic it
>is only necessary to show how any one of the eight prophecies either
>wasn't fulfilled at all, wasn't fulfilled by Jesus, or contains some
>other fallacy which renders it invalid. To do so would cause the
>mathematical value of that "prophecy" to become zero and would reduce
>the entire exercise of multiplying eight individual probabilities
>together to always result in a final value of zero. This means that
>there would be exactly zero chance that Jesus was the fulfillment of
>much of anything at all. I think it can be shown that all eight of
>Sherman's "prophecies" have serious problems.
>I'm sure that many others here can tear several of these apart to a much
>greater degree than I could, but here's my take on some of them.
>Corrections and additions will, of course, be greatly appreciated.
>
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #1. Micah 5:2
>>"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands
of
>>Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in
Israel,
>>Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."
>>What is the probability of this prophecy being fulfilled by any one man?
To
>>determine this, the average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah
>>until now would need to be known, as well as the average population of the
>>earth during the same time period. Stoner (Science Speaks, p. 101-102)
came
>>up with a ratio of 1 man in 280,000 has been born in Bethlehem. It may be
>>expressed as 1 man in 2.8 x 105 was born in Bethlehem.
>
>BAKKE
>Probably the most famous single "Messianic prophecy" in the OT. Sherman
>interprets it in the standard way of saying that it predicts that the
>Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Unfortunately, I believe that the
>usage "Bethlehem Ephratah" along with the other wording indicates that
>this usage refers to a person and not to a place. Since nobody in the
>either Biblical genealogy of Jesus is named either Bethlehem or
>Ephrathah, he couldn't have come "out of" any such person. (Also, see 1
>Chronicles 4:4, where someone named Ephratah is the father of
>Bethlehem.)
>Furthermore, since the Messiah, by definition, must come from Bethlehem,
>it is pointless to calculate the ratio of human beings who have ever
>been born there. Nobody who *wasn't* born there would be eligible to be
>the Messiah. That makes this factor a given rather than Sherman's small
>probability, but still doesn't support this verse as being a prophecy.
DAVE
Good points Bakke! Sherman made a mistake presenting this as a prophecy
fulfillment. I am sure Farrell with blow him out of the water on this.
Cities, in hebrew, were feminine.Yet Bethlehem in this passage is masculine
(if I remember Yoel correctly). That would demonstrate that the writer did
not even have the city in mind but a person. Your point about birth in the
city not a necessary requirement is excellent. Further, if one read the
entire context (vs 1-6) (s)he would discover that the prophesied ruler would
deliver the Jews from the Assyrian. Jesus did not even deliver the Jews from
the Romans. They killed him instead.
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #2. Malachi 3:1
>>"Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me."
>>The question here is how many men the world over has had a forerunner to
>>prepare his way? A very conservative estimate would be 1 in 10,000.
>>Since, according to the Scriptures, this was a special messenger of God,
>>this estimate is indeed conservative. The estimate may be expressed as 1
in
>>103.
>
>BAKKE
>A couple of begged questions come immediately to mind. What is meant by
>a "forerunner" and how will he/she/it "prepare the way"? Also, what is
>the basis for the 1 in 10,000 figure? Finally, if one reads the entire
>third chapter of Malachi, it seems rather plain that it is God who is
>talking about himself and it doesn't sound like he's too pleased with
>things. I thought that prophecies of Jesus were supposed to presage
>something wonderful.
DAVE
Exactly. The passage very clearly is referring to a messenger that would
prepare the way for GOD or better yet, Yahweh, not a mortal man. Of course
Christians will argue that Jesus _was_ God. How do they know? Well, Malachi
3:1, used in conjunction with Mark 1:1,2 prove he was! Strange, "God" got
killed by the Romans. Where is _that_ prophesied to happen? Further, the
flaw of all Christian prophecy claims (context) demolishes Sherman's claim.
When did the fulfillment of Mal 3:2-5 take place? And Mal 4:5,6? Seems if
someone prophesies 1-2-3-4-5 and only 1 happens but not 2-3-4-5 then
something is wrong. But I get it! It _will_ happen - in the future! Oh
silly me! Why didn't I think of that before? Still, until 2-3-4 happen I
suppose we can declare this prophecy "unfulfilled".
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #3. Zechariah 9:9
>>"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
>>Behold, your King is coming to you...Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt,
>>the foal of a donkey."
>>One man in how many has entered Jerusalem as a ruler riding on a colt, the
>>foal of a donkey? Since most rulers entering Jerusalem would do so in a
>more
>>dignified manner, an estimate of 1 man in 103 will be used.
>
>BAKKE
>Isn't Zechariah referring to the return of the Jews from the Babylonian
>Exile in this verse?
>Sherman's figuring is even more bizarre here. To justify a 1 in 1000
>figure, he is certainly assuming that there are a lot of kings in the
>Jerusalem area and that none ride colts. This doesn't even consider the
>fact that Jesus was never a ruler of anything during his life.
DAVE
Good point again. Jesus of Nazareth was _never_ King of Israel. He was
killed by the Romans. The only scepter Jesus ever held was a mock one. Of
course Christians claim he _is_ King, even now, as we speak. But
unfortunately (for them) that is an unverifiable claim and thus worthless.
It is strictly a matter of faith, not evidence. Unless Sherman can show
Jesus is _actually_ King he has no case. Just out of curiosity, what other
way would a King in Zechariahs time use as more dignified transportation?
Why would riding a donkey into the city be undignified in that era?
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #4. Zechariah 13:6
>>"And one will say to him, What are these wounds between your arms? Then he
>>will answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."
>>How many men in all the world since Zechariah have been betrayed by his
>>friends and then, as a result, was wounded in the hands? This would appear
>>to be a quite rare circumstance but in order to be as conservative as
>>possible, the estimate will be set at 1 man in 1000, or 1 in 103.
>
>BAKKE
>Zechariah is clearly referring to false or discredited prophets and not
>to the Messiah. Read the first five verses of this chapter to put this
>"prophecy" in proper context.
DAVE
Yes, you are right! Context is the worst enemy of prophecy claims. The
Bible says: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the _prophets_
shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he has prophesied; neither
shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
"But he shall say, "I am no prophet, I am a (tiller of soil {RSV}) for
man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
"And one shall say unto _him_ (the above prophet) "What are these wounds
in thine (back {RSV}) or (chest {Luther})? Then he shall answer "Those with
which I was wounded in the house (of those who loved me-{margin}).
Why was this shamed prophet wounded in the house of his loved ones? Go
back to verse 3 of the same chapter. It was prophesied that the parents
would "thrust through" their own children who prophesied. The hebrew word
for "thrust through" here can also be a synonym for "wound" (Jer 37:10).
Obviously, although the intent could be to "kill" their own offspring, this
hapless prophet would be only "wounded" and carry the scar of his wound.
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #5. Zechariah 11:12
>>"Then I said to them, If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if
>>not, refrain. So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver."
>>Of the people betrayed, how many were betrayed by exactly thirty pieces of
>>silver. The estimate of one man in 10,000 will be used. It is expressed as
>1 in 104.
>
>BAKKE
>This one wouldn't even make the list of "prophecies" if not for
>Matthew's tendency to justify his Gospel writings by trying to match
>them up with verses from the OT. This one he got wrong, as he claimed
>(Matthew 27:9) that the prophecy was from Jeremy (Jeremiah). Therefore,
>it's entirely reasonable to believe that this is a retroactive or
>self-fulfilling prophecy instead of a real one. Furthermore, the story
>in Zechariah is not one of betrayal, but of a transaction that had the
>approval of God.
DAVE
Bingo! It is translated "treasury" in the RSV, NAB, JB, GNB, NWT,
NRSV,and Moffat. Zechariah was paid for feeding a flock, Judas for betraying
a friend. Zechariah was paid for work done. The "field" reference in
Jeremiah was for 17 shekels of silver, not 30. It was a transaction approved
by God.
>
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #6. Zechariah 11:13
>>"And the Lord said to me, Throw it to the potter; that princely price they
>>set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the
>>house of the Lord for the potter."
>>This is a very specific prophecy. How many men, after receiving a bribe
for
>>the betrayal of a friend, returned the money only to have it refused and
>>then the money used to purchase a field from the potter? An estimate of 1
>in 10,000 will be used, or, 1 man in 105.
>
>BAKKE
>It's "specific", to be sure. Specifically, it's a mistranslation in
>addition to being a total bastardization of the story. There was no
>betrayal, no refusal of the money, no field, and no potter. The Revised
>Standard Version corrects the mistranslated phrase "to the potter" back
>to "into the treasury". This makes the final sentence of verse 13 read,
>"And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them into the
>treasury in the house of the LORD". Sounds more like a generous
>donation to the local temple to me.
DAVE
See my comments above that support this. There were 17 shekels of silver
involved in the purchase of the field (Jer 32:9). Sherman strikes out on
this.
>
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #7. Isaiah 53:7
>>"He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He
was
>>led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is
>>silent, So He opened not His mouth."
>>How many men, after being oppressed and afflicted and is on trial for his
>>life will make no defense for himself, even though he is innocent? This
>>would be quite rare no doubt. The estimate of one man in 1000 will be
used.
>>It is expressed as 1 in 103.
>
>BAKKE
>This is obvious nonsense even if we believed that Isaiah was speaking
>about the trial of Jesus. In John 18:21-37 we can read about Jesus not
>only speaking up more than once but being slapped by a guard for
>speaking in an inappropriate manner to the high priest.
DAVE
This is an abysmal failure.Jesus spoke at least seven times during his
trial. This is just the recorded times.
1) to the High Priest - mark 14:62
2) council- John 18:20-23
3) council (daytime)- Luke 22:67-70
4-7) Pilate John 18:34, 36, 37; 19:11
>>SHERMAN
>>Prophecy #8. Psalm 22:16
>>"For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed
>>Me. They pierced My hands and My feet."
>>One man in how many since the time of David has been crucified? At one
time
>>this was a common method of execution, therefore the probability of one
man
>>in 1000, or 1 in 103 will be used.
>
>BAKKE
>Nowhere in the Gospels does it say that Jesus had his feet pierced. The
>entirety of Psalm 22 strikes me as being little more than the Psalmist
>whining about his own miserable lot in life.
DAVE
Sherman must read only KJV here...Ps 22:16 was translated incorrectly in
the LXX and the gospel writers ignorantly followed it. Literally, the
Psalmist writes:
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they "lion" my hands and feet."
That may make no sense to us in the 20th century, but we sometimes use
animals as verbs. For example, we can say "He snakes his way through the
crowd" or "They dogged him without mercy". The Psalmist is saying his
persecutors "lion" his hands and feet. What could this mean? It had
something to do with lion like behaviour. One translation translates it
thus: "They cling like a lion to my hands and feet". (I did not write the
translation into my margin, however, I think it is the NWT or a Jewish
translation). One scholar wrote "They claw at my hands and feet"..(again, I
failed to note the translation in my margin but I am almost willing to bet
if one searches other translations he will find support for this). Anyway,
Sherman is in serious difficulty with these.
Dave