A Question for Bronson
Farrell Till errancy@infidels.org
Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:33:25 -0700 (00928499605, 2.2.32.19990604073325.008e47cc@midwest.net)
At 08:52 PM 6/3/99 EDT, you wrote:
>> > RANDY
>> >
>> > Neither one of us believe in the existence of the gods to which
>> >Assur-Nasir-Pal
>> >refers. And neither one of us would regard his claim of divine direction
>> > as a moral justification for his actions. I don't believe I've ever
stated
>> > otherwise.
>>
>> >I think I'm missing what you must consider to be the force of your
argument.
>> >
>>
>> TILL
>> Whether I or you or anyone else believe in the existence of these Assyrian
>> gods is beside the point. Assur-Nasir-Pal believed in them, probably just
>> as much as Joshua and Saul believed in Yahweh. So if you contend that
>> Assur-Nasir-Pal's massacres described in his inscription were objectively
>> immoral but the massacres of Joshua and Saul were objectively moral >>
becauseYahweh had commanded them, you are begging a question you need >> to
prove.
>
> RANDY
>
> Yes. And the way in which I'm able to prove, or unable to prove, this
> question is what the other thread is about. I don't know why you're
bringing up > the question we're already in the middle of debating in
another thread.
>
TILL
I get impatient with biblicists who duck and dodge when they find themselves
cornered, and that is obviously what you are now doing. You guys come on to
this list all of the time talking about special guidance of "God" or the
"holy Spirit" that you think you receive that makes you know that you are
right, and we are just trying to get you fellows to give us some kind of
reasonable explanation for how we can have any confidence in such
"experiences" as these. Your argument about OT atrocities has been that
they were not really atrocities because Saul and Joshua were ordered by
Yahweh to do those things. Whether they were really ordered by Yahweh is a
purely subjective opinion based only on the fact that ancient documents
contained in the Bible SAID that Yahweh told them to kill Canaanites and
Amalekites. Now I have quoted and documented ancient Assyrian inscriptions
that claimed that Assur-Nasir-Pal's gods told him to kill entire civilian
populations, so I have asked you a very simple question. Why should we
believe that an ancient god told Saul and Joshua to kill civilian
populations, but we should not believe Assyrian documents from the same
period and general region that said gods had told Assur-Nasir-Pal to commit
the same kind of massacres?
It's a simple question. If you don't answer it, I will conclude that you
know that you are backed against a wall. In that event, I won't consider
you worth the trouble to reply to any more of your postings, because it will
be obvious that you are just another biblicist who has nothing reasonable to
offer in support of his belief that the writings of ancient Hebrews were the
"inspired word of God."
>TILL
>
>> The only proof you have that Yahweh commanded the massacres of Joshua >>
and Saul is the mere fact that someone living in an ancient, superstitious time
>> SAID that Yahweh commanded them.
>
> RANDY
>
> Yes. And debating the trustworthiness of the Bible, and whether or not
>it's statements lead to contradictions, is what I thought this list was all
about.
>
TILL
That IS what it's about, so when can we expect you to begin offering
evidence that the Bible is trustworthy? You may as well understand right
now that we are not going to let you just assume it.
>TILL
>
>But Assur-Nasir-Pal also said that his
>> gods had commanded him to commit the massacres described in his
>> inscription. What's the difference?
>
> RANDY
>
> The difference is what I thought this list was all about.
>
TILL
That's another evasion, Randy, and you know it. This list exists to debate
the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Whether the Bible can be considered
trustworthy depends upon a successful defense of that doctrine, so, as I
asked above, when can we begin to expect you to start offering evidence that
the Bible is historically trustworthy?
TILL
>> What is your proof that Yahweh did indeed order those atrocities? I sent a
>> posting today about the similarities in the ancient Near Eastern religions.
>> I'd like to see your reaction to it and a rational explanation for why we
>> should think that of all of the religions at that time, one of them really
>> was the true one.
>
RANDY
> As I mentioned in my response to avatar8, I'm trying to decrease the number
>or threads in which I'm involved, not increase them.
>
TILL
I can understand the need to decrease the number of threads, so if that is
what you are trying to do, stop sending 10 or 12 postings at one time that
address various issues. Why don't we make a deal? Why don't we agree that
we will limit your threads to just one, which would be the trustworthiness
of the Bible? When that is done, your only obligation will be to present
arguments in support of biblical accuracy.
Why don't you start by sending us evidence that would prove that biblical
records are more trustworthy than Assyrian, Egyptian, or Babylonian records
from the same general era? Once you establish that fact, then you will have
a basis for arguing that we should believe that Yahweh ordered Joshua and
Saul to kill entire tribes of people, but the gods of Assyria didn't really
command Assur-Nasir-Pal to commit similar massacres.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net