Problems with the Virgin Birth Story

Michael Fisher mwfisher@cts.com
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:01:48 -0800 (00918651708, 36C12EDA.7FA66831@cts.com) 


>     <snippity>

>  CREA

>      I don't recall advancing any arguments in this matter, merely adducing

>  data which would allow for a fair evaluation of the material (and at your

>  behest, at that).  It appears obvious that you didn't bother to take a look

>  at the other references I cited, so I'll save you the effort.  Second

>  Corinthians 11:1-4 reads as follows (again, KJV):

>

>

>    [2Cor. 11:1]  "Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:

>                   and indeed bear with me.

>

>    [2Cor. 11:2]  "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:  for I

>                   have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you

>                   as a chaste virgin to Christ.

>

>    [2Cor. 11:3]  "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled

>                   Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted

>                   from the simplicity that is in Christ.

>

>    [2Cor. 11:4]  "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we

>                   have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit,

>                   which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye

>                   have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

>

>

>  CREA

>      Notice the references to jealousy, and the status of the church as a

>  "chaste virgin".  Tell me, Joe, if you had brokered a marriage contract and

>  promised a virgin bride, only to later discover that she had done EVERYTHING

>  (mutual masturbation, oral, anal, intercrural and intermammarial sex, etc.)

>  except for vaginal intercourse, would you be willing to claim that there was

>  REALLY no harm done and that you had faithfully carried out your part of the

>  deal?

>

> =====================

> Joe Alward:

>

> Ray, what is Crea talking about, and does it have anything to do with my

> suggestion that Paul wasn't necessarily saying that those who gave additional

> information about Jesus were accursed?


  ELF
    Joe is quoting Paul precisely where Paul is saying to beware of anyone
claiming to have any additional information about Christ.

    By the numbers:

   [2Cor. 11:1]  "Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
                  and indeed bear with me.

   [2Cor. 11:2]  "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:  for I
                  have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you
                  as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    Here Paul is saying that he has very carefully explained "the gospel", the
good word, the truth in Christ, to those whom he is addressing so that they will
know the exact truth and be saved.

    He uses simile and metaphor and a couple of other techniques I can't recall
the names for so I'll try and rephrase it in simpler English:

    First he apologizes for his pride in his accomplishment. He then tells them
("I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy") he is very concerned with them
BECAUSE he has carefully taught them exactly what they need to know so that they
are both now saved and can make it to heaven when the time comes  ("...I have
espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to
Christ.")

    NEXT he tells them he is concerned about false teachers who might try and
teach something different:

   [2Cor. 11:3]  "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled
                  Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted
                  from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    Paul is telling his readers that he (Paul) has taught them THE true, pure
gospel ("the simplicity that is in Christ") but that there are OTHER teachers who
will claim to be teaching the truth and in an attractive manner ("as the serpent
beguiled Eve through his subtlety") and that he is afraid that these false
teachers, teaching ANYTHING Additional to what he taught ("the simplicity that is
in Christ") might take them away from the truth ("so your minds should be
corrupted")

    Paul then goes on to further emphasis the importance of NOT departing from
what Paul has taught them:

   [2Cor. 11:4]  "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we
                  have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit,
                  which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye
                  have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

    Paul is expressing concern/admonishing the readers to be cautious of any other
evangelists claiming to teach anything additional about Christ ("if he that cometh
preacheth another Jesus, WHOM WE HAVE NOT PREACHED"), or offers some other
"mystery" in addition to what Paul taught, water baptism or whatever, ("or if ye
receive another spirit which ye have not received") , OR teaches ANYTHING
additional ("or another gospel, which ye have not accepted{from Paul's
teaching}"), then Paul is afraid they might fall away from the truth ("ye might
well bear with him.") and be lost.

    Or in brief, Paul is telling them that anyone who teaches anything additional
to whatever Paul has just taught them is a false teacher and will lead them away
from Salvation.

    Hoping this helps, but expecting it won't  .  .  .

Mike, aka Elfish Chimera