How Did Apostles Die?

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GoodGuy
The only bad thing I find as I continue to educate myself is the fact that
most others are not educating themselves. This frustrates me. 

TILL
Well, I trust that Goodguy knows by now that I am not one who is not
"educating" himself. I started studying the Bible seriously in 1949 (long
before Goodguy was even born, I suspect), and I have continued to study it.
If I told him how much time I devote to biblical and religious studies each
week, he wouldn't believe me, so I won't even bother. 

GOODGUY
You mentioned some nonsense about showing me evidence and I still did not
change my mind? 

TILL
I have explained to Goodguy that he misunderstood me. I didn't say that I
had presented him evidence and he still didn't change his mind. I merely
explained to him that if our discussions were to continue, I wanted his
agreement to post everything to the Errancy and Lions-Den lists, as well as
whatever list he may have himself. To explain my reasons for this request,
I said that discussions such as these required too much time for me to
invest the effort in private exchanges with someone whose mind was already
made up and probably would not change no matter how much evidence was
presented. I was talking about evidence that WOULD BE presented and not
evidence that I had already presented. Quite a bit of water has flown under
the bridge since I sent him that posting, so I think that I can now say
that I HAVE presented him with evidence, which he apparently is unable to
respond to, but that he has not changed his mind. 

GOODGUY
What evidence? It seems that I have been the only one providing evidence in
our mailings . 

TILL
Goodguy has provided evidence in his mailings? When was this? I have seen
lots of assertions that were unsupported by evidence and several appeals to
authority that were also unsupported, but I haven't seen much effort at all
to give valid reasons why it is reasonable to believe (1) that the apostles
were actual historical characters, and (2) that the apostles died for their
belief in the resurrection. Perhaps Goodguy wouldn't mind running his
"evidence" by us again. 

GOODGUY
Is that frustrating to you? 

TILL
What is there for me to be frustrated about? Goodguy hasn't presented any
evidence to support his position, and he hasn't tried to respond to my
evidence. From where I stand, it's rather obvious who is winning the
debate, and it isn't Goodguy. 

GOODGUY
Once again a skeptic dodges me. 

TILL
Oh? I am dodging Goodguy? And skeptics have actually dodged him before? I
wonder why they did? I have seen no reason to dodge him? Has anyone else? 
I have seen a posting from Goodguy dated January 13th in which he made the
following statement: 


>Oh, youre still here. Just wanted to let you know I am not reading any of

your latest e->mail.  So just who is dodging whom? From my perspective, it
seems rather obvious >that Goodguy is doing all the dodging. That happens,
of course, when one takes a >position that cannot be supported with evidence. 

GOODGUY
Why in the name of Christ would I want your historical follies associated
in any way with me? 

TILL 
Well, I disagree, of course, with his use of "follies," but otherwise I can
understand why he would not want me to be associated with him in any way.
I'm too likely to puncture his biblical inerrancy balloon with information
that he can't refute, so he resorts to bandying about terms like
"historical follies" (which he didn't identify) to try to save as much face
as he can. We've seen this on the Errancy list before, haven't we? 

GOODGUY
You are a good alternative for the uneducated, and it is probably
comfortable for you around those people. 

TILL
I have a challenge for Goodguy. If he will join the Errancy list, I
guarantee him that some of these "uneducated" people on the list who are
such a comfort to me will chew him up and spit him out before he has time
to know what has happened. That's because this list has people on it who
have researched biblical issues for longer than Goodguy has been alive. If
he doubts me, I defy him to accept my challenge. "Subscribe errancy" in the
message window to major-ii@infidels.org will put him on the list. Will he
do it? 

GOODGUY
You mentioned that I, alone, am a waste of time. 

TILL
Yes, and I stand by that statement. The shallowness of Goodguy's knowledge
of the Bible and Christian history has been exposed already on the list,
yet it takes a lot of time to expose even superficiality. If I am going to
invest the time to do this, I want more than an audience of one whose mind
is already made up and probably would not change no mattter how much
convincing evidence I might present. Earlier today, I checked the
enrollment on the Errancy list and found that we now have 116 members. In
that number, there are undoubtedly some who are willing to weigh evidence
and reach whatever conclusions the evidence leads to, but to spend hours
sending private postings to people like Goodguy? No, I have neither the
time nor the patience to do that. 

GOODGUY
It seems by your mailings that I have been a great help to you, for you
obviously have done little research. 

TILL
Goodguy has been a great help to me? I'm going to surprise him and agree
with him. Everyone knows that I think that biblicists are their own worst
enemies. Every time they try to defend the Bible in open forum against an
informed opposition, they wind up hanging themselves and twisting in the
wind. Every inerrantist who comes onto the list and makes a spectacle of
his/her inability to defend the claim that the Bible is the "inspired word
of God" gives Christian lurkers on the list a chance to see their failures.
That's why I want people like Goodguy to post to the list. In his case, he
wouldn't join the list, so I posted his messages anyway, and he has been a
great help to me in accomplishing what this list was set up to do. For
that, I thank him. 

GOODGUY
You however are a waste of my time (in regards to e-mail) you have shown me
nothing new, only very shallow information with no evidence to back it up. 

TILL
Well, it is very strange that Goodguy didn't tear into me and rip my
arguments to pieces and show how "shallow" my information was. What we
have, of course, is just another inerrantist trying to save face by
declaring victory without even having fought a battle. We have seen it all
before. 

GOODGUY
Good luck with your shallow studies, friend. Get in touch with me when you
are ready to debate with the "big boys." 

TILL
Goodguy, I debated Dr. Norman Geisler at Columbus, College, in Columbus,
GA, and Michael Horner at Seattle Pacific University, and the "boys" don't
get much bigger than they are. In addition to these two, I have debated
several others who were reputed to be the top debaters in their churches. I
think I can say, then, that I am ready to debate the "big boys." Do you
know where I can find any? Geisler has informed me that he is too busy for
a return engagement, this time at the seminary where he is dean, and so
have all of the others refused to debate again, except for Horner, whom I
lost contact with, and one lone Church-of-Christ preacher, who has said
that he is willing to give it another try. 

GOODGUY
Or better than that when you want to give your life to Christ. 

TILL
As I have told many others who sign off with this trite platitude, I have
been there and tried this. It's just not going to happen again. It's just
not possible for me to "give my life" to someone who very likely didn't
exist and if he did is now dead and has been for two millennia. 

By the way, I'm not finished with the apostles yet, but I had to put the
subject on hold in order to attend to other matters. When my postings
resume, hop right in any time you feel like it 

Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net 

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