Rule of "Audience" (Was re: The Rich Man)

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> Matthew Bell

> I look forward to seeing your argument, as it does not appear to me that

> what

> you posit is possible. As you will well know a rule of Biblical

> interpretation

> is to ask to whom is the passage written. In this case the answer is it is

> written to one seeking to be a disciple/follower of Jesus. Though sincere in

> his seeking, the cost of such was too high for him and he was unsuccessful.

> Hence the application would be to those seeking to become

> disciples/followers

> of Jesus, who would be met with the cost of discipleship and their success

> or

> failure in such dependant on whether they are prepared to pay such a price.

> 

> EDWARDS

> Matt, I've said this before, but that won't stop me from saying it again.

> The rule of asking to whom the passage was written (or to whom the saying

> was given) doesn't work very well. 


Matthew Bell
No, the principle works fine. One considers whom is being spoken to, believers
or non-believers and applies what is being said to the relevant group
considering the context in which it is written. With the rich man the
individual is not a disciple of Christ so therefore what is said to him applies
to those who are not disciples of Christ. 


>EDWARDS

>Here are some examples; not all will

> apply to your specific church, but I suspect some will.

> 

> Paul said "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,

> singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph 5:19, AV).  The

> Church of Christ uses this verse as the basis for not allowing instrumental

> music in their services (because Paul says make melody in your heart, not on

> a piano, organ, pan flute, steel guitar, whatever; note that the audience

> was the Ephesians).


Matthew Bell
The audience were indeed believers and hence the words apply to believers and
not to non-believers. That the Church of Christ uses this verse to support not
allowing musical instruments in their services does not make it true doctrine,
only the doctrine of the Church of Christ. Christians must search the
Scriptures to determine whether such is correct or erroneous. For instance I
see immediately that the Greek word for  psalms in the passage is 'psalmos'
which according to Zodhiates Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible means:

'from psao, actually a touching, and then a touching of the harp or other
stringed instrument (there's your steel guitar ;), with the finger or with the
plectrum (is that an anachronism?); later known as the instrument itself., and
finally it became known as the song sung with the (wait for it.......) musical
accompaniment.....

Now I am not saying that Zodhiates is correct (I haven't checked it out), but
there already is one argument against the CoC understanding.

Note also that the epistle is not only addressed to the 'saints at Ephesus' but
also, 'and to the faithful in Christ Jesus'. Who is that?


>EDWARDS

> Writing to the Corinthians, he said "But every woman that prayeth or

> prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even

> all one as if she were shaven" (1 Cor 11:5, AV).  At least some churches use

> this as a basis for requiring/expecting women to wear hats in church, even

> though the audience was the Corinthians.


Matthew Bell
The immediate audience was the Corinthians, the extended audience is '....all
that in every place call upon the name of the Jesus Christ our Lord, both
theirs and ours...' Sounds like Christians to me? The verse applies to
Christians and should be adhered to, though you will understand that if my wife
saw this post I would be in BIG trouble (ain't even going to touch your next
point :). Seriously, the principle remains the same, it applies to Christians
and not to non-Christians. That not all Christians adhere to such does not
change who it is written to, only the compliance or non-compliance with it for
which they are answerable to God.


> EDWARDS 

> Paul had this to say to Timothy:  "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to

> usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence (1 Tim 2:12, AV).  This

> can be argued as being applicable to all churches and is used as a basis for

> excluding women from the ministry (obviously the dominant practice among

> Christian churches) and even "Sunday School" teaching.


Matthew Bell
I ain't even going there :)


> EDWARDS

> Now, let's hear from James, the actual brother of Jesus.  James says this:

> "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let

> them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James

> 5:14, AV).  Two notes:  James' epistle was a general one, and he says

> nothing about seeing a physician.  And yet, how common is it to forego a

> physician in favor of calling the elders and getting annointed?


Matthew Bell
I consider the above binding on Christians, though not to the neglect of
calling on medical attention. Note the healing is dependant on the prayer of
'faith'. In modern Christianity there are generally few that have the faith to
call together the elders never minds the faith to effect healing. As with the
above the lack of adherence to it does not negate to whom it is written and
their obligation to practice such.

> 

> Regardless of what your specific church practices, I don't think that you

> can argue that churches apply the simple rule of "audience" very

> consistently at all.  I would suggest that instead, the interpretation of

> such passages is very often ad hoc and self-serving - many interpret them in

> a way that is comfortable and/or convenient for them (just as some used to

> appeal to the bible as justification for the institution of slavery).  You

> have said in the past that other considerations apply.  However, we've yet

> to see you (or anyone else, for that matter) describe how these

> considerations are used in the general case.  Instead, all we typically see

> is the end result of your applying these principles to very specific cases,

> with no description of the underlying method.  In the absence of a stated

> method, the method must be assumed subjective, which necessarily voids the

> use of the bible itself to arbitrate differences of opinion.


Matthew Bell
The method is simple, if a passage is directed at believers then it applies to
believers, it it is directed at non-believers it applies to non-believers.
(Places his head in chopping block :)

Thanks
M.Bell

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