bounced: Teachings V. Resurrection
Achilles achillesz@usa.net
Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:52:37 -0500 (00917916757, 18502168583122@unifour.com)
On 1 Feb 99, at 10:41, Ed Tyler wrote:
<big snip>
> > Achilles
> > >
> > >There are dozens of similar points, for instance the many cases where
> > Epistle
> > >writers quoted sayings the Evangelists attributed to Jesus, but never is it
> > >mentioned that Jesus said these things! Only later, in the Gospels, does
> > that
> > >come up. I don't think you will find any references to Pilate in the
> > Epistles
> > >either - Paul wrote that the Christ was crucified by the principalities -
> > the
> > >archons or evil spirits that ruled the air.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > Pilate shows up in 1 Tim 6:13 and that's it. However, this instance is
> > significant because in it Paul has Jesus speaking to Pilate (although he
> > doesn't quote Jesus); this and several other passages in the epistles make it
> > seem rather extravagant for the mythicist position to claim that Paul thought
> > Jesus was "purely celestial." At least we know from 1 Tim. that the tale of
> > Christ before Pilate was circulating very early, and probably widely.
> >
> > The use of archê or principalities is somewhat ambiguous and could
> signify the
> > "powers of the air," an order of angels, or an abstraction of civil authority
> > (compare "justice").
> >
> > Some conservative Protestant exegetes argue that Paul isn't the author
> > (because of the emphasis on church hierarchy and organization), but there's a
> > distinct sectarian tone to their arguments. Whether Paul wrote it or not, 1
> > Tim's a very old document. It's seems that Paul's about as likely to have
> > authored it as any. You know I'm skeptical about Pauline authorship, period.
Achilles
I think you might want to re-examine that line of reasoning Ed. No non-
fundamentalist modern scholars that I know of accept Pauline authorship of 1 or
2 Timothy - they, along with Titus, form the group called the pastoral
epistles, well known forgeries written long after Paul was dead.
A quick quote from the religious tolerance website I have cited earlier (this
from the page http://religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb3.htm )
> A.Q. Morton completed an analysis of these Epistles. (1) He assumed that
> Galatians was written by Paul, and did a computer study of the style of the
> remaining letters using that epistle as a reference. His computer found that
> only Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Philemon matched the writing style of the
> author of Galatians. He assumed that the remaining 8 were written in the name of
> Paul by persons unknown.
>
> Most liberal scholars of New Testament theology:
>
> accept Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philippians and 1
> Thessalonians and Philemon as having been written by Paul.
>
> Colossians may have been written by Paul.
>
> 2 Thessalonians and Ephesians probably was not.
>
> 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus were definitely pseudonymous (written by a unknown
> person, passing themself off as Paul.) They were written 35 to 85 years after
> Paul's death. Although such a writer would be considered a forger today, the
> practice was quite common in the 1st century CE, and was considered acceptable
> behavior.
So the isolated reference in 1 Timothy doesn't weaken the case in the slightest
in my mind, by the time it was written the Gospels had already been written and
circulated.
A reference to Pilate in Romans, 1 or 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians,
Phillipians, or 1 Thess. would be difficult for the mythicist position to
explain, but 1 Timothy is no impediment at all.
I should have been more specific in my original posting however, instead of
simply saying "Epistles" I should have made it clear that I was talking only
about the original early epistles, not the later forgeries.
Regards,
/Achilles achillesz@usa.net
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Random thought for the moment:
Marriage is a psychological condition, not a civil contract and a
license. Once a marriage is dead, it is dead, and it begins to stink
even faster than a dead fish.
-- Maureen Johnson in To Sail Beyond the Sunset