Teachings vs Resurrection?

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> CARTER

> There is a difference. Muslims died (and die) for they believe in the

> truthfulness of Mohammed's -teachings-.  

> 

> The early Christian, especially the apostles and early witnesses, died

> defending the death and resurrection of a crucifed peasant. The difference

> is this: The early Christians (again, especially the apostles) were in a

> position to -know with certaininty- whether or not the resurrection

> happened. Yet they testifed to the upmost of its occurance. In fact, Paul

> the importance of the truth of the resurrection especially clear throughout

> his epistles. "And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is in

> vain, and you are still in your sins", and "We have not followed cleverly

> devised myths..". What evidence was there to convince a man who was

> involved in the systematic murder of Christians to become a preacher of

> Christ? What event caused the men who had seen their leader die disgraced

> upon a cross to dedicate the rest of their lives to spread a story like the

> resurrection?


Achilles

I will be interested to see how Ed answers that, but this is my answer. 

You are begging the question of the the historicity of Jesus. 

The Epistles do not support you on this. I know you think they do, but that's 
because you have never read them without assuming the framework of the Gospel 
stories and later Christian doctrine. However, they do not require that 
framework to make sense. 

It is quite possible that Christ, to the earliest Christians, was a purely 
celestial deity or quasi-deity. Paul in fact specifically argued for a 
spiritual, not a physical resurrection when he asked if corruptibility could 
put on incorruptibility (I am tired so I won't dig up the verse tonight, I am 
sure you know the passage I mean.) 

There are dozens of similar points, for instance the many cases where Epistle 
writers quoted sayings the Evangelists attributed to Jesus, but never is it 
mentioned that Jesus said these things! Only later, in the Gospels, does that 
come up. I don't think you will find any references to Pilate in the Epistles 
either - Paul wrote that the Christ was crucified by the principalities - the 
archons or evil spirits that ruled the air. 

Have you ever read any of the non-christian religious literature of the time? 
You might try Philo Judaeus. When you start to grasp the neo-platonic worldview 
it opens up a whole different understanding of the Epistles. 


> How also was such a belief not immediately shot down by the Jewish leaders

> of this time? 


Achilles

Quite possibly because it did not exist to be shot down at that time. 


> Do you see the difference? 


Achilles

Yes I do. Do you see that you are begging the question? 


/Achilles     achillesz@usa.net

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Random thought for the moment:

    There is one unmistakable sign of the collapse of good manners:
    dirty public washrooms.
           -- Jubal Harshaw in To Sail Beyond the Sunset

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