3 days in scripture
Farrell Till errancy@infidels.org
Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:15:03 -0700 (00934733703, 2.2.32.19990815111503.009671c4@midwest.net)
At 01:35 AM 08/15/1999 -0400, you wrote:
ERIK
>I don't know the expertise of the person you have debated with on the
>subject of the resurrection, but I am just a layman. I was able to find the
>reference in scripture to which Jesus refers to in Luke 24. #1 Hosea 6:2 #2
>Jesus tells the Pharisees in Mtw. 12:39ff about the sign of Jonah.
>
TILL
This was sent to me privately, so I assume that Erik is referring to an
on-going challenge I have for inerrantists to show where the OT ever
prophesied that the Messiah would be resurrected the third day as Jesus
allegedly claimed in Luke 24:46. It may be that I have exchanged
correspondence with Erik and can't remember. After all, I sit here hour
after hour, day after day answering messages and postings I receive, so I
can't always remember everything that has been said and exchanged in the
past. Anyway, Erik seems to be trying to show where the third-day
resurrection of the Messiah was prophesied, so let's look at his
"resolution" of this problem.
He claimed that Hosea 6:2 referred to the third-day resurrection, so let's
look at what the verse says IN CONTEXT. Biblicists are always accusing
skeptics of taking scriptures out of context, so, without trying to rebut
that claim, let's just take a look at how biblicists will sometimes ignore
context in their efforts to find something to defend the Bible. In other
words, I am saying that even if they are right in saying that skeptics take
passages out of context, they have little room to talk. Here is the full
context of the verse Erik has cited.
>Hosea 5:10 The princes of Judah have become like those who remove the
landmark; on them I will pour out my wrath like water.
>11 Ephraim is oppressed, crushed in judgment, because he was determined to
go after vanity.
>12 Therefore I am like maggots to Ephraim, and like rottenness to the
house of Judah.
>13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah his wound, then Ephraim went
to Assyria, and sent to the great king. But he is not able to cure you or
heal your wound.
>14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, and like a young lion to the
house of Judah. I myself will tear and go away; I will carry off, and no one
shall rescue.
>15 I will return again to my place until they acknowledge their guilt and
seek my face. In their distress they will beg my favor:
As chapter five closes, it should be obvious to readers that Hosea was
ranting about the usual prophetic concerns: Israel (Ephraim & Judah) had
apostatized, and so Yahweh was threatening to "carry off" his people and to
return to his place (a probable reference to where primitive people thought
that their god dwelt) until the people had acknowledge their guilt and
sought his face.
The next chapter opens with the people acknowledging guilt and seeking
Yahweh's face
>6:1 "Come, let us return to Yahweh; for it is he who has torn, and he will
heal us; he has struck down, and he will bind us up.
>2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
>3 Let us know, let us press on to know Yahweh; his appearing is as sure as
the dawn; he will come to us like the showers, like the spring rains that
water the earth."
So all that Erik's "proof text" is saying is that Yahweh would bind up,
heal, and revive the people of Judah and Ephraim. The fact that the promise
was that Yahweh would raise US up shows that the text was referring to a
plurality of people and not to a single person. Furthermore, the promise
was that Yahweh would revive US "after two days" (v:2). So if this was a
reference to the raising up of Jesus, does this mean that he was revivified
in his tomb after two days and stayed there for another day before coming out?
The verses that follow remove all doubt that these statements were being
said of Ephraim (Israel) and Judah and not of just one person.
>4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes away early.
>5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have killed them by the
words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light.
>
I'm sorry, Erik, but it looks as if you are going to have to look further
for the OT passage that spoke of a third-day resurrection of the Messiah.
For the benefit of those who may not be familiar with Jesus's statement in
Luke 24:46, let's take a look at it.
>Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
>46 and he said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer
and to rise from the dead on the third day,
>47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his
name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
>
Since the NT had not yet been written at this time, the only "scriptures"
that Jesus could have meant (if indeed he ever even made this statement)
would be the OT. My challenge is for biblicists to point out the exact
place where the OT ever said that the Messiah would be resurrected on the
third day. Erik has tried to meet the challenge, but the best he could come
up with was Hosea 6:2, which, as I have shown, obviously had no reference to
the Messiah but to the resurrection or healing of a nation that had
apostatized. So the problem still remains. Jesus claimed that the OT
prophesied that he would be resurrected the third day, so where is that
prophecy in the OT?
This will explain why Matthew 12:39ff can't be cited as the text that
referred to the third-day resurrection of the Messiah, because Matthew
12:39ff is not in the OT and had not even been written at the time that
Jesus made this statement. If Erik wants to argue that Jonah was written
before Jesus lived, and so if Jesus compared his coming resurrection to
Jonah's experience, that made the experience of Jonah a "prophecy," I'll be
glad to debate this with him. Let him present his argument in support of
that position, and I'll be glad to reply to it.
ERIK
>It seems to me you don't really care about the truth, rather you are trying
>to convince yourself that your beliefs are the truth.
TILL
It seems to me you don't really care about the truth; rather you are trying
to convince yourself that your beliefs are the truth.
ERIK
>One day we will know who is right.
TILL
Oh, really? Please explain to me how we will ever know who is right if
death is the end of all awareness for both of us.
ERIK
>Just because you can't explain something, or don't have an
>answer to something that seems puzzling, is not the same as proving it
>wrong.
>
TILL
That's true, but if I should make this same statement with reference to,
say, evolution, I think I can predict what your reaction would be. If I
should make this same statement with reference to the origin of the
universe, you wouldn't be willing to accept that, would you?
ERIK
>I will pray for you.
>
TILL
You and about ten thousand others. I would think that some of you should
have gotten through to the big guy by now, but my life goes on just as if
nobody at all was praying for me.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net