A Comment
Farrell Till errancy@infidels.org
Tue, 03 Aug 1999 23:55:32 -0700 (00933767732, 2.2.32.19990804065532.0094ae58@midwest.net)
WALKER
>Eleven of the twelve closest followers of a rabbi named Jesus, from Nazareth,
>died martyr's deaths for a hoax?
TILL
It's almost incredible how that would-be biblical apologists recycle the
same old discredited "arguments." One would think that they would at least
take the time to see if anything has been published in response to arguments
like this one. If Walker had done that, he would have known that there is
no unbiased, disinterested, contemporary records that make any references at
all to the apostles and their alleged martyrdom that would corroborate this
often parroted claim that the willingness of the apostles to suffer and die
for what they preached proves that they knew the resurrection had really
happened. Most recently we have seen Theo come to the errancy list to
parade this claim, but we have also seen that he, like all of the others
before him, now sits in silence on this issue, completely unable to present
any contemporary nonbiblical corroboration of this claim.
In a word, Walker is begging the question of NT accuracy in the matter of
the persecution and martyrdom of early evangelists. There are legends about
the activities of the apostles and the martyrdom of many of them, but they
are so inconsistent and contradictory that no one can take them seriously.
I'm afraid that walker has just parroted something he heard spewed from the
pulpit but never took the time to check for accuracy.
WALKER
> Get a clue!
TILL
Well, since I am not the one making claims that have no historical basis,
then I'm not the one who needs to get a clue. Walker does.
WALKER
>None of the books of the New Testament would have been written had not
Jesus >risen from the dead.
TILL
I wonder if Walker knows the meaning of non sequitur? What he just said is
as ridiculous as if a Mormon should say, "None of the Book of Mormon would
have been written had Joseph Smith not been visited by the angel Moroni," or
if a Muslim should say, "None of the Qur'an would have been written if
Muhammad had not been a prophet of Allah." Would any of the *Illiad* have
been written if the Greek gods portrayed in it had not existed? Didn't
Walker say something about getting a clue?
WALKER
>And he was very much dead, confirmed by plenty of non-believers.
TILL
Oh, and just who were these nonbelievers who confirmed that Jesus was "very
much dead"? I wonder if Walker can answer this without begging the question
of NT accuracy.
WALKER
>NO human being was ever born, nor will ever be born, who could have
survived the >torture and crucifixion.
TILL
Well, first of all, Walker is begging the question of NT accuracy when he
claims that Jesus was crucified. No unbiased, disinterested, contemporary
records made any references at all to this man Jesus, much less his
crucifixion and death. I wonder if Walker would care to prove to us that
Jesus was crucified without relying on the question that he has constantly
begged in his letter, i.e., that the NT is historically accurate in
everything that it said about Jesus.
Furthermore, Walker has made a claim that amounts to asserting a universal
negative. He is asserting that human survival of crucifixion has NOT
happened. I wonder how he could possibly know this? I can look in the
files to find them if Walker proves to have the courage to pursue this
point, but does anyone happen to remember the examples of people who
survived crucifixion that were posted when we were debating this issue
several months ago?
WALKER
>And as many as 500 different people, in several different places
>over the course of many days, saw Jesus alive in his body after his death.
TILL
Walker is confused about what his own inspired, inerrant word of God says.
The 500 to whom he seems to be alluding are mentioned only in 1 Corinthians
15:6, and here Paul said that after his resurrection Jesus had "appeared to
more than five hundred brothers and sisters AT ONE TIME, most of whom are
still alive, though some have died." So Walker doesn't even know very well
the NT whose historical accuracy he assumes in practically every word he writes.
Who were these 500 brethren? Could Walker give us the names of just three
or four of them? Could he tell us where this happened? Could he tell us
when this happened?
Could he tell us why he expects rational people to assume the historical
accuracy of a book that is filled with fabulous claims that only the
hopelessly gullible could believe happened?
WALKER
>Look at it from the point of view of His followers at the time. They weren't
>terribly clever people.
TILL
Somewhat like Walker, I imagine.
WALKER
> Read how and where He gathered them.
TILL
You mean read in the NT how and where he gathered them? So Walker is just
asking us to assume the historical accuracy of the NT. I wonder if Walker
could possibly make an argument in support of his position that doesn't beg
the question of NT accuracy. I wonder if he even knows what the logical
fallacy of begging the question is?
WALKER
>Here was a radically different teacher who explained truths in Old
Testament >Scripture that opened their eyes.
TILL
And here is Walker begging the question of NT accuracy. I defy him to
produce a single unbiased, disinterested, contemporary record that even
mentions Jesus, much less corroborates all of the fabulous deeds that the NT
attributed to him.
WALKER
>They loved Him. And then he predicted His death and
>His resurrection on the third day. If he hadn't risen, ALL of them would have
>immediately gone back to their old lives and Jesus would have been a mere
>footnote if that, in Jewish history. "The Way" would have faded into
>oblivion.
TILL
So it is obvious by now that Walker can do nothing but beg the question of
NT accuracy. I'd like him to pick any one of the assertions above and refer
us to unbiased, disinterested, contemporary records that would corroborate
the NT claim that this happened.
WALKER
> Study the Bible using the commentaries, a Bible dictionary and a
>concordance, and your eyes too will be opened.
TILL
Well, I hate to tell Walker that I have studied the Bible very seriously
since 1949, that I have three Bible dictionaries and two concordances on my
desk, and I would venture to say that my knowledge of the Bible far exceeds
Walker's. My eyes were opened long ago, but they were opened to the fact
that the Bible is riddled with inconsistencies, contradictions, failed
prophecies, and other discrepancies. Only someone very gullible could be
aware of all this and still believe that the Bible is the "word of God."
It's just too bad that Walker hasn't studied the Bible seriously and
objectively enough to have his eyes opened to the reality of what it really is.
WALKER
>Remember this also: You can't afford to be wrong.
TILL
When all else fails, a biblicist can always resort to Pascal's wager, can't
he? I'll bet that Walker doesn't even know what Pascal's wager is.
WALKER
>By the way, all of the theories put forth explaining the resurrection as a
hoax >have been debunked for lack of intelligent evidence long ago.
>
TILL
I don't need to "explain" the resurrection any more than I need to explain
the Muslim claim that Muhammad once split the moon into two pieces and that
eyewitnesses saw the peak of Mt. Hera interposing itself between the two
pieces. I don't need to "explain" the resurrection any more than I need to
explain the Mormon claim that the angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith and
delivered to him the golden plates on which the book of Mormon had been written.
Those who question ridiculous claims like these don't have to explain
anything. The ones who assert that these things happen are the ones who
have to do all of the explaining. I wonder if Walker would care to join the
Errancy list or the Errancyn newsgroup and explain to us how he knows that
the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is a verifiable historical event.
All he has to do is send me the word, and I'll put him onto the Errancy
list. If he will do that, I will shove his foot farther into his mouth than
it already is.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net