Shooting in Colorado: Right or Wrong?

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CARTER
Just wanting the opinions of the subjectivists here, so we can clarify a
bit and bring the focus of morality up close and personal.

Specifically, I would like to know the opinions of Till, Poobah, and Tim.

Were the "Trenchcoat mafia" *really* "wrong" in what they did at their
school? Or was it only an evolutionary flux, or an outworking of the
Game-Theory, or just plain survival of the fittest?

And what would do you tell the parents of the dead teens who's bodies have
hidden bombs on them? Would you tell them that it is a moral abomination,
or that "We can't really say it's WRONG, because morals don't really exist.
They are only defined by our society." Or would you say, "You're just
confusing the 'wrongness' of their action with 'undesirable consequences.'

Interested in your thoughts,

POOBAH
I've been out of town, and a bit out of touch, so if I miss some context,
please forgive me. I will answer this since it was addressed in part to me
directly.

Jason, your question is analogous to demanding that I tell you how many
angels can dance on the head of a pin (like your morality, I see no evidence
of their existence, so how can I possibly know how many fit on a pin?). Or
another way: your question is like someone repeatedly demanding that you
tell them what creature Methuselah was reincarnated as after he died (and
this person refuses to accept any answer that doesn't involve
reincarnation). Or another way: your question is like asking me if Spiderman
could *really* beat up The Hulk.

As the old saying goes, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

I do not accept your premise, and therefore it is impossible for me to
answer your question. We've been over this ground over & over again. I don't
live in the spook-filled platonic world that you do, where things have
intrinsic essences that cannot be experienced, but which are more real than
experience itself. The very idea itself is absurd to me. I see no evidence
of objective morality, I have no idea what it would be, and so I have no
idea how to answer your question. Perhaps if you gave me some idea as to
what objective morality was, I could answer your question.

I don't think you've been very fair with anyone here, Jason. We've answered
each & every one of your hypotheticals, questions, queries, and yet not once
have you ever offered any evidence that your so-called objective morality
exists. Not once have you offered any evidence that even if it did exist
that you could know what it is. Not once have you even deigned to give
objective explanations to hypothetical situations, even those of your own
creation. And yet you have the gall to castigate others who don't "believe"
in your objective morality for not being able to answer questions within the
framework of your objective morality?

Let's get one thing straight as well: there are naturalistic explanations
for our sense of "conscience," commonality (where it exists) in moral codes,
and our deep-seated revulsion at acts such as we've witnessed this week.
We've been over that as well. Until you can show us that your objective
morality is a better explanation, what is a rational person to conclude?

You state that without an objective moral code, one has no reason for
behaving morally. Well, in one sense such a statement is a tautology. No, if
there is no objective morality then there is no reason to behave as if there
is. However, I think you are allowing yourself to be confused (or are being
deceptive) with the multiple meanings of the word moral. If instead we say,
without objective morality, one has no reason to behave "ethically" or
"considerately" or "compassionately," I would have to say, "really, why?"

To deal more directly with the issue behind the question you asked, yes, I
feel a sense of outrage, grief, and anger at the events that occurred in
Colorado, and in a larger sense with the events that transpired in our media
& society as a whole in the aftermath. While my reaction is no doubt primal
& instinctive as well as empathetic, I think I have good rational reasons
for reacting with horror & revulsion at what happened. If you can't see how
it is in society's best interest to prevent such things from happening, and
why such acts are horrific even if there is no God to say so, then I must
say that you disturb me to my core.

I personally feel grief & sadness for the events of this week, but it
doesn't make me feel any better to imagine that these two psychopaths will
be getting an eternal metaphysical spanking when their heavenly father gets
home.

As for the parents, I have no desire to tell them anything, or intrude in
their grief in any way, nor would I presume to judge any conclusions they
reach to help themselves deal with such an unspeakable loss.

For me, the larger tragedy (larger in the sense that it is systemic &
society wide) is that instead of asking why two young men at the beginning
of their life felt so much alienation that the only solution was to hurt
everyone around them, we will instead concentrate on what music they
listened to, what games they played, what clothing they wore, who their
friends were, etc. etc. etc. looking for the magic spell that turns
"objectively" good kids into bad. Then in a vain attempt to prevent future
occurrences, we will further subject our adolescents to dehumanizing
searches, suspicions, & misunderstandings that will only serve to deepen the
sense of alienation that, in some young men, leads to such desperate acts.

If I were to look for an easy fix for this problem, as I heard Dr. Dobson on
the radio try to do tonight (parenthetically I must add that I find the
attempts by the Christian right to use such atrocities, and the feelings of
societal helplessness such horrors engender, as a tool to further their
political agenda to be the vilest societal result of such acts. Dobson & his
ilk revolt me to the core of my being), I might ask the following: can a
society which glorifies a being who, when "wronged," takes his revenge on
anyone & everyone he can find, not expect its youth to absorb such a
message? Can a society who imagines a being who, when "wronged," demands a
blood sacrifice, not expect its youth to absorb such a message?

Here's my hypothetical Jason: What's the difference between how Jehovah is
described and what those two out of control adolescents did this week?

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