*Alward: Matthew 1:17 (to Crea)

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Hi all!


Joe Alward:
 (snip)

Here's Matthew 1:11-12 for other's benefit:

"And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, ABOUT the time they were carried
away to Babylon"

I take the "about" as license to give Matthew the benefit of the doubt and
assume he really DID count the names in his first sixteen verses, and that he
meant for Josias to end the second group and Jeconiash to begin the third.  To
assume otherwise is to assume that there is an error in Matthew 1:17 (there is
an error, in my opinion, but it has nothing to do with our current debate.)

DAVE
    Actually, I felt the same way originally Joe does now because Matthew seems
uncertain
when the captivity actually began in relation to which generation was
"begotten". While
this made things convenient for my argument that "apo" was always inclusive of
the
first item in the series, giving me a neat tidy "14" in each set, I realized
there was one
flaw. It is clear to me, at least, whatever generation Matthew had in mind in
reference to
the captivity at the end of list two would be the same generation  he had in
mind at the
beginning of list three. This would follow his example with David at the end of
list one and
at the beginning of list two. An inerrantist would always be able to argue
Matthew 1:17
provided an exception. The exception, as you all know *tests* the rule.
   First lets examine what the rule is. I am going to give the definition as
provided by *Arndt
and Gingrich* (the lexicon).
   On page 86, under "apo" is this definition:
  to denote the point from which something begins, in lit. and fig. mng.
  1. of place *from*  *out from* Mk 8:11, Matthew 23:34, Mk 13:27
  2. of time *from*- *since*
      a. *from the days of John* Matt 11:12
      b. with the limits defined, forward and backward (Jos., *Ant* 6, 364) Mt
27:45, Phil 1:5,
  Rom 5:14
      c. *since* Col 1:6,9; Lk 7:45; Acts 24:11; 2 Pet 3:4, 1 Macc 1:11
  3. indicating the beginning of a series *from*-*on*
     a. Lk 24:47, jude 14, Matt 2:16
     b. w. both beginning and end given (Sirach 18:26, 1 Macc 9:13, Matt 1:17,
23:35, Acts 8:10)
************************************************************
     BTW Joe, this is not a complete definition. I have greatly condensed it,
eliminating greek
characters and other items not pertinent to this discussion. If you want to see
the entire
definition, go to the library and look on page 86 of the lexicon. Familiarize
yourself with how
"apo" looks in the greek before you do it.
   The definition can now be supplemented with a word study in the NT. The KJV
can be
supported with *Strongs Concordance*. Look under "since" and "from" and under
other
words Strong lists in his defintion and you will be able to find various usages.
I found at least
61 with reference to a series, either short or long. All but one seem to include
the first item in
the series. That one exception is this (Matthew 1:17) passage.
   This leads me to believe that Matthew miscounted in the second series. The
only other
alternative (considering definition and usage elsewhere) seems to be Matthew did
not
count Jeconias in the second set. Then we get three sets of 14, all nice and
pretty. As tempting
as that is, and beneficial for my argument in this case, I had to abandon it.
Read and judge
for yourself.
Dave Mooney

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