(Ron) Consistent Since Its Inception?

Brian Dean bridean@worldnet.att.net
Thu, 14 May 1998 04:43:23 -0400 (00895157003, 19980514083102.AAA17145@briandea) 


>>RON

>>Where you make your mistake is in the assumtion that the greek word

>>"heiros", translated as "priest" (as in "high priest") is the same 

word 

>>as "presbyteros", which is translated as "elder" in english 

>>TRANSLATIONS of the N.T. 

>>

>>TILL

>>No, I'm not assuming that.  Where have I even implied such a thing?

>>


*snip a whole bunch of stuff*

TILL
When have I said that "hierus" and "presbuteros" are interchangeable?  
I haven't said that at all.  I have said that "presbuteros," a Greek word 
that meant "elder" or "old" was used interchangeably with "episkopos," a 
word that meant "overseer" or "bishop," but I have never said that "hierus" 
and "presbuteros" were interchangeable terms in the NT.  I agree with 
your suggestion to deal with the original Greek text, so why don't you do 
that? Get a Greek lexicon and see if "presbuteros" and "episkopos" didn't 
mean exactly what I have said.  Then check "hierus" and see that it 
meant "priest," a term that was derived from "hieros," which meant 
"holy."  The NT writers called all Christians "priests," and they called men 
who had been selected to "feed the church of God" by the terms 
"presbuteros" (elder) and "episkopos" (bishop).  However, no NT writer 
ever even suggested that all Christians were "presbuteroi," because that 
was a term applied to men (apparently elderly men) who were selected to 
rule over a local congregation.  In referring to those who held this office, 
NT writers sometimes called them "elders" and sometimes "bishops" and 
sometimes both in the same context (as I have shown).  Why don't you 
deal with it?

TILL
I'll comment on Matthew 16:18-19 after you have addressed my point 
above. You have a bad habit of shifting the subject to something else 
when you find yourself cornered.  

RON
  You are the one who confused heiros with presbyteros in your post. 
Don't lay that trip on me. You are right when you say the "elder" and 
"bishop" were Church "offices", but wrong when you claim these words 
were used interchangeably by NT authors with "heiros". When the NT says 
we are all "priests" the word translated is "heiros" not "elder" or 
"bishop" which were offices in the Church.
  Your initial point was that the Catholic Church goes contrary to 
Scripture. I don't see that having the offices of "elder" and "bishop" 
contradicts Scripture. Even if one were to concede that the terms were 
originally used interchangeably (which I am not admitting) the fact that 
with Church growth they later became separate offices would in no way 
contradict the intention of Christ in his establishment of the Church. 
It is my contention, however, that in the early Church, just as in the 
synagogues, there was an overseer (Chair of Moses) and several "elders" 
under his authority. 

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