Fw: Does God NOT Exist? (Till)
Brian Dean bridean@worldnet.att.net
Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:25:47 -0500 (00889863947, 19980314021731.AAA5130@briandea)
>>RON
>> By suggesting that belief in God is an "outrageous" claim you are
>>making a pre-judgement.
>
>TILL
>Am I making a "prejudgment" if I say that those who say that they have seen
>Elvis Presley alive after he was officially declared dead are making an
>outrageous claim? A former student of mine, who was the best writer I ever
>had in any of my classes, claims that she is regularly visited by alien
>beings and sometimes taken away to their planet. Did I make a "prejudgment"
>when I once told her to her face that this is a ridiculous claim that only
>the very gullible could believe?
>
>RON
>> It is irrelevent whether the truth outrages you.
>
>TILL
>But whether that which outrages me is really the truth or not is another
>matter. Simply to assert that it is begs the question.
>
>RON
>> My challenge was made specifically (in context) to Mr. Till, not "we".
>
>TILL
>And my challenge was made specifically (in context) to you, so let me see
>you prove that fairies do not exist.
>
>RON
>>As I already suggested the existence of God can only be proven by reason
>>or experience. You do not accept my reasoning and you and your comrades
>>have suggested that those who claim the experience (even yourselves!)
>>are either deluded or lying.
>
>TILL
>We do not accept your reasoning because your reasoning is flawed. If you
>will present a specific argument for the existence of your god, I will be
>glad to show you why it doesn't prove your claim. As for experiences, we
>merely say that since they are personal and emotional in nature, they cannot
>be accepted as evidence. To argue otherwise would obligate you to accept
>the personal experiences of all who claim to know that their gods exist.
>Thus, you will be required to believe that Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Ahura
>Mazda, and an endless list of other gods all exist. So, tell us, do you
>believe in the existence of all these gods? If not, then please explain to
>us why your personal experiences with your "God" should be considered more
>valid "evidence" than the experiences that others have had with other gods.
>That's a reasonable request, so either give us an answer or else admit that
>your "evidence" is inconclusive. Don't get angry at us just because we are
>pointing out the obvious.
>
>RON
>>In effect you have ruled out ANY and ALL evidence, since ALL evidence is
>based >on observation. How convenient.
>
>TILL
>No, it isn't convenient; it's just the truth. So can we help it because you
>make a claim that cannot be proven by any evidence that is known to be
>reliable? If you want to find fault, go look in a mirror.
>
>RON
>>Further you have virtually admitted that you cannot prove God does NOT
>>exist.
>
>TILL
>Yes, we have admitted this, but keep in mind that we have also acknowledged
>that it is virtually impossible to prove any negative. To understand this,
>all you have to do is imagine that someone has asked you to prove that Big
>Foot, the Loch Ness monster, ghosts, unicorns, etc. do NOT exist. Keep in
>mind also that we have repeatedly reminded you that we sense no obligation
>to prove that "God" does NOT exist, any more than you sense any obligation
>to prove that Big Foot or the Loch Ness monster or ghosts or unicorns do not
>exist. You're angry at us for having a perfectly sensible position when you
>should really be angry at yourself for having an untenable position.
>
>RON
>>Therefore, unless you now consider yourself to be an agnostic, your atheism
>is >simply a matter of your own desire.
>
>TILL
>No, my atheism is a simple matter of intelligent examination of evidence.
>That examination led me to conclude that the evidence is insufficient to
>justify belief in "God"; hence, I have no such belief. Is your afairyism a
>simple matter of your own desire, or do you have intelligent reasons for not
>having a belief in fairies?
>
>RON
>>Examine yourself honestly.
>
>TILL
>Are you going to do this too? I really think I have examined my motives,
>but I don't think that you have.
>
>RON
>>Why do you want to convince yourself that God is not?
>>
>
>TILL
>You have no idea how emotionally disturbing it was to me when I began to
>realize that my "faith" in God had been founded not on intelligent
>examination but on social customs. Anyway, why don't you tell us why you
>want to convince yourself that God is?
RON
I'm already convinced that God is. Perhaps you will be again some day.
Pax.
BRIDEAN
How many issues or questions can you guys count that Ron did NOT address?
Yet it is always the Christians that claim that atheists do not address their
issues or answer their questions isn't it?