[Seekers] Punishment (Ward)
Austin Cline Pioneer@infidels.org
Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:09:11 -0400 (00889128551, v04003a01b124605cde9d@[209.114.145.31])
>Michael W. Fisher wrote:
>> And your Biblical source for defining ancient Hebrew idiom is . . .???
<snip - examples of "shedding blood">
WARD
>Look at this last verse please. Do you REALLY think that they still had
>LITERAL BLOOD in their hands?? No, the term means kill, plain and
>simple.
AUSTIN
How do you know that they did not literally shed blood? No information is
given. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. What evidence do you have that
they didn't? And what was the original Hebrew?
<snip>
MWF
>> I did ask you to define "stealing" using the bible, and what you
>>came back with is
>> livestock rustling.
<snip>
WARD
>No, quite the contrary, you are trying to avoid the issue. STealing is
>taking something that is not yours.
AUSTIN
Where, in the bible, is that explicitly stated?
WARD
>Exo 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be
>found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
>
>Rustling a man???
AUSTIN
No, "stealing a man." Now, what does "stealing" mean in the above sentence
*according to your bible?* Where does your bible define "stealing?"
WARD
>Lev 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to
>another.
>Prov 6:30 Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul
>when he is hungry;
>
>Taking food that is not yours is stealing. Eating from someone else's
>buffet dish when you have not payed is stealing. Simple enough.
AUSTIN
Where in the above verses does it say anything about "taking what is not
yours?" How do you know that they aren't meant metaphorically?
WARD
>Stealing is clearly defined by the many contexts containing the examples
>of stealing. very clear.
AUSTIN
Only if you bring in presuppositions about what stealing is - namely,
taking that which is not yours. So far you have provided no biblical verses
which state that "stealing" involves that. At all times, the verses simply
use the term "stealing" and appear to assume that the reader has already
learned, somewhere, what that term means.
MWF
>> YOU said just below "The Bible teaches that sin (transgression of the
>>law [Gods law] is not
>> imputed when there is no law", and there is NO law about the above
>>circumstance. I'm just
>> pointing out that your bible, the one YOU said has an "absolute standard
>>of morality" does
>> NOT prohibit, according to the source YOU quoted, forceable sex with an
>>unmarried femal so
>> long as she is not betrothed.
WARD
>So are you saying the above is not rape?
AUSTIN
He is saying that your bible does not define it as rape.
WARD
It is amazing how you fail to
>deal with Scriptures I present.
AUSTIN
The "scriptures" you presented do not define it as rape - so how is he
failing to deal with them?
WARD
>Well, answer the Scripture. Is it rape
>or not? Is it wrong or right? Answer that and I will answer you.
AUSTIN
To him, it is - but only because he has come to that conclusion
independently. If he followed the bible, there appears no reason to think
that it is not.
<snip>
>> It's a gap in the morality of YOUR absolute moral source.
WARD
>Actually, the gap is in your ability to pinpoint any origin of right and
>wrong. Was it wrong of Hilter to slaughter millions of Germans,
>Russians, Poles etc? Yes or no? If so, why? If not, walk down the
>streets of Brooklyn and shout, "Hitler was not wrong in what he did."
>k?BTW, that is a challenge. I double dog dare you.
AUSTIN
I believe that it is wrong. However, I see no reason to condemn it in your
bible.
MWF
>> I didn't change, alter, shift the sequence, or take out of context
>>anything YOU quoted.
>> It says what it says, and what it DOES'T say one thing about is forced
>>sex with single women
>> who are not betrothed.
WARD
>See above.
AUSTIN
See the verse that you conveniently cut out. As Michael says, it doesn't
prohibit forced sex with unbetrothed women.
<snip>
WARD
>1 Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye
>should abstain from fornication:
>1 Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in
>sanctification and honour;
>1 Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which
>know not God:
>
>
>Seems to include rape, now doesn't it.
AUSTIN
No, actually. I don't see the term "rape" in the above. Thus, forced sex
with an unbetrothed single women still isn't defined in the bible as
"rape." It's fornication, it seems - but not rape. Do you tell women that
they weren't really raped, but simply "fornicated?"
Austin Cline; German Department; Princeton University
--- The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher
esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.
- Nietzsche "The Dawn" (1881)