[Seekers] Punishment
Michael W. Fisher mwfisher@cts.com
Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:26:58 -0800 (00889064818, 34FDB911.5DBD4F95@cts.com)
Ward Fenley wrote:
> Michael W. Fisher wrote:
> >
> > Ward Fenley wrote:
> >
> > > Farrell Till wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > FENLEY
> > > > >Yes, after you tell me whether you believe in moral absolutes and then
> > > > >let me challenge you to several situations. Then I will gladly accept
> > > > >your challenge.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > TILL
> > > > I don't believe in moral absolutes, so present your challenge. I will
> > > > agree to accept your challenge, even though the burden of proof in this case
> > > > rests on you, because you are the one asserting the existence of moral
> > > > absolutes.
> > > >
> > > WARD
> > > Ok, first is it an ABSOLUTE that there are no moral absolutes?
> >
> > MWF Aw, I wanna play too, so I'll answer as well:
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > WARD
> >
> > > Second, if you answer that it is an absolute that there are no moral absolutes
> > > but [that] belief in that absolute is not believing [in] a moral absolute,
> > > [and] then if I say that your belie[f] is not true, am I telling the
> > > truth according to you?
> > >
> >
> > MWF What do you mean by truth?
> >
> > Is it true that you believe that what you say is true? Then probably yes.
> >
> > Is your assertion actually true? No.
> >
> > Is an assertion of mistaken belief about external fact a moral failure? Not
> > usually.
> >
> > > WARD
> >
> > > Thus, if I am not telling the truth, then what do you call not
> > > telling the truth and is it [] an absolute?
> >
> > MWF In the circumstances of the assertion above, it is a false belief that is
> > being asserted. The moral culpability of uttering a false belief depends on the
> > ability of whoever utters a false belief to know that that belief is or may be
> > false, and their ability to then investigate that belief.
>
> How do you define a false belief and what determines that false belief?
MWF A belief in an internal state, accessible only to the individual. The
individual can be said to believe a proposition p if he is ready to act as though p
were in fact a statement which described how a particular state of affairs in fact is.
A person, for example, could have a belief that the ocean is in fact the best
tasting fresh water in the world and fit to drink.
If we tell him his belief is false, that the ocean in in fact salt water and he
tells us "I don't believe you!", and then in fact, when we get to the ocean he runs
out and attempts to drink the water we can say that his actions were consistent with
his stated belief.
Which belief may now change, as he has found out that it is a false belief. The
ocean is in fact salty.
If the individual in question indeed had believed that the ocean was fresh water
(and only he can know for sure since belief is an internal state), then he acted IAW
his belief. His belief was, however, false since the ocean is non in fact fresh water.
Thus a false belief is a belief that a person has which he would be willing to act
on as though it were in fact an accurate description of some state of affairs, but
which is not consistent with the actual state of affairs.
> >WARD
> > > On the next email,
> > > lets define truth.
> >
> > MWF Please do. It ought to be interesting.
> >
> WARD
> That which is not a lie. :o] Your answer to the above question should
> help us start defining. After all, if you who hold to no moral
> absolutes, yet believe that there is absolutely a false belief,
MWF Certainly. Many people have many false beliefs, from Sasquatch to UFO's to even
gods and devils and 200 mpg carburetors.
WARD
> not only
> is the burden of proof upon you to define false belief
MWF Done
.
WARD
> and also to determine how absolutes are determined,
MWF Noting that some proposition p can never in fact describe an actual state of
affairs.
WARD
> you also have to pinpoint how to
> determine whether denying a certain "non-moral" absolute is really a
> moral absolute after all.
MWF Eh? Whatever are you talking about?
WARD
> If it is not, what gives you the freedom to
> hold such a belief?
MWF What belief is that?
--
Michael Fisher, ET1/SS USN ret., law student
>>NEW->http://www.infidels.org/library/humor/lioaca.html
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
http://home.aol.com/Mfish6994
* * *
". . . a very LONG discussion is one of the most
effective veils of Fallacy: . . . A Fallacy which
when stated barely . . . would not deceive a child,
may deceive half the world if diluted in a quarto
volume"
Richard Whately, "Elements of Logic", p. 151