Jesus & Holy, Holy, Holy
Helen Willis hhiwater@BRIGHT.NET
Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:58:07 -0800 (00888595087, 34F68E2F.5AF@bright.net)
Gary Wm Kuehl wrote:
>
> Helen,
>
> Thank you for your e-mail. I appreciate your continued interest to discuss
> these things.
>
> It is not problems if you wish to keep the folks at "errancy" informed, or
> copied, on any of our e-mails, however I leave that to your discretion.
>
> >HELEN:
> >I'm going to send a cc of this to errancy, so if you get some mail from
> >there don't be suprised. Please list the Biblical verses of the
> >prophecies you believe that Jesus fulfilled? Please list the verses that
> >explain the trinity? Are either of these questions harder or ruder than
> >the questions than you ask a Mormon or JW? How would you react to them
> >telling you that you have been deceived? Wouldn't you simply ask them
> >again to answer the questions? These should be easy to answer. Please
> >try.
> >Helen
> >hhiwater@bright.net
>
> KUEHL:
> You first ask about Scripture about Jesus and prophecies He fulfilled.
> Really, there are so many, it's almost "take your pick." Maybe if you would
> consider the Psalm of the Cross, Psalm 22, to start. See what you think
> about it.
HELEN:
I've been very busy and have just gotten to answering my e-mail. I
posted your letter to errancy and will send you a copy of any replies
that are posted. I know this Psalm well according to the Oxford
Annotated Bible (NRSV):
1) It is a prayer for deliverance from a mortal illness, that presumes
that the offerer of the prayer will recover and will be able to sings
god praise in the Temple read from verse 19 on. Verse 23 on are the
rendering of the hymn of praise that he wil sing when he recovers. Er,
did Jesus recover and go sing God's praise in the Temple
2)Mark reports that Jesus quoted this psalm from the cross, you would
claim I suppose that this was prophecy fulfilled, but since the psalm
ends with the sufferer being saved by God, it seems to me it is prophecy
failed.
3)That verses 14-15 and 17-18 are descriptions of a fever.
That verses 6-8 refer to "The Psalmist misery is aggravated by the
mockery of those who regard illness as a sign of God's displeasure.
vers
> On your question about the Trinity, the word "trinity" is only shorthand for
> how God is described in Scripture. And, it was coined, if you will, as a
> thing comparable to how we might use an acronym to remember a technical term
> or an organization name. You ask about those verses which explain the
> Trinity, there are some to consider, but also it is as if one would read the
> biography of an individual and then some one ask which verses explain that
> individual's character. There of course are many and to get the complete
> view, one reads the whole thing. Here we speak about understanding the
> character of God.
>
> You know maybe the verses which say "Holy, Holy, Holy," and how believers
> are to baptize. Mt 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the
> nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the
> Holy Spirit."
HELEN:
You are aware that this verse contradicts Mat.10:5? I believe that the
doctrine of trinity was not accepted by the church until several hundred
years after the supposed time of Jesus, so I suspect there are other
explainations for this verse. I think he claim that, "Holy, Holy, Holy"
is a reference to the trinirty is a reach. Of course, the capitals would
not have been in the original manuscripts (actually it would probably
have been all capitals, "unicap", I believe is the name for the script)
GARY:
Also, remember how God is the Only God and how Isaiah 9:6
> foretells Christ's birth and Who He is. Isa 9:6 ....Mighty God, Everlasting
> Father, Prince of Peace.
HELEN
This is one of a series of prophecies tied to the birth of various
children. This is a different child from the one born of a young women
in Isa. 7:14-17. It may be a prophecy of the Jewish Messiah for this
child sit upon the throne of David. Er, please what were the dates of
Jesus' reign on that throne? It seem to me that during the supposed time
he lived the kings were mainly named Herod, so how is this a prophecy
Jesus fulfilled. I mean just because you all pretend he will or does sit
on that throne doesn't mean he ever did sit on that throne. It seem to
me you saying that this prophecy was fulfilled because you all believe
he fulfilled it even thought there is no evidence that he really did.
Right?
GARY:
Still the LORD, YAHWEH, says, Isa 45:21 .....Who
> has
> declared this from ancient time? ....Have not I, the LORD? And there is no
> other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
> How do these fit together? Is there God that is different than the Savior?
HELEN:
This is a Jewish writing that is saying that there is only one God. This
would seem to say that the Christian claim for this trinity of yours is
not possible. How do you see this as an argument for a segmented God. I
am suspicious that this in the Hebrew reads as an argument against the
belief held by some Jews in a Messiah, but it certainly seem to say that
the only salvation is through Yahweh. I don't see why you think this
claims that he will hve a son, who is his equal. That would seem to be
the exact opposite of what the verse is saying.
GARY:
> Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! And, Jesus
> repeated this at Mk 12:29 when asked," What is the _first_ commandment of
> all."
>
HELEN:
Deut.6:4 is the Shema which Jewish law requires all Jewish prayers for
thankgivng that God gave them laws to obey begin with. For example, when
a Jewish man starts his morning prayer he say in Hebrew some thing like,
"Hear oh Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD alone, blessed is He that
give us a commandment to say prayers in the morning." Orthodox Jews say
this about dozens of things in a day. Where on earth do you see either a
prophecy of Jesus or a concept of God splitting into three parts in this
verse?
GARY:
> The whole gospel of John is a beautiful testimony to the Oneness of God in
> the Word, the Father and the Holy Spirit.
HELEN:
John disagrees with the synoptic gospels on the date of the crucifixion
in relation to the Jewish calender. John is laced with anti Semitism.
This oneness is wonderful as it
> is explained, however also a point of departure over people really
> understanding this can be seen in heresies over the years, people thinking
> them separate, people not hearing Jesus' answer at Mk 12:29 and the other
> texts making this so.
HELEN:
As I have explain the shema has nothing to do with God having a kid or
spilting into three parts or anything like that. It is the most basic
statement of the Jewish faith.
GARY:
It has been explained in Scripture as a great
> "mystery of Godliness" at Col 2:2, 1Tim 3:16 and Rv 10:7. And, so it is,
> revealed in Christ.
HELEN:
None of these verse talk of the trinity. They say Jesus was God born on
Earth, perhaps and I'm not sure even they say that, but I see no mention
of three parts.
GARY:
Finally, the book of Hebrews is beautiful to tie all
> this together in explaining how important this is in the life of a believer.
>
HELEN:
If Hebrews is a great expression of your faith then do you believe Paul
wrote it? Can you explain why the author of this book misquoted Psalm
40: 6-8 in Hebrews 10:5-7?
I hope none of these answers are any more rude or insulting that those
you would give to a Mormon or a JW.
Helen
hhiwater@bright.net