(Ron) Borgia to Ron

• Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]

>RICK G

<snipped for brevity>

>Are you THAT gullible??? Do you actually believe that Borgia didn't

>KNOWINGLY misdirect "the faithful"??? Pleeease!!! Give us a break here,

>will ya!!!




>RON

>  You have yet to prove that Borgia misdirected the faithful on a

>doctrinal matter, or cite scripture that proves he had to be sinless to

>a particular degree in order to have authority on matters of faith and

>doctrine. Remember "The greatest of saints is only the least of

>sinners". The only sinless humans have been Mary and Jesus. Even Peter

>betrayed Christ three times and was chosen by Christ to be the first

>leader (pope) of the Church.


Yeah, right!

RICK G
#1
Well Ron, just off the top of my head: the bible teaches that only Jesus was
without sin, not Jesus AND Mary, as you catlics like to believe. When, in
1850, Pope Pius X (not sure about this pope's name) pronounced, ex-cathedra,
the dogma of the immaculate conception -- or is it contraption? ;-) -- it
was stated that the Holy Catholic Church has always believed and taught that
Mary was sinless. My guess is that this would include Borgia, and that
Borgia would have taught this, since Pope Pius said the church ahd always
believed and taught this doctrine. Now here's what the bible says about this
so-called dogma:

Rom 3:9  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have
before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are ALL under sin;
 10  As it is written, There is NONE righteous, NO, NOT ONE:
 11  There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God.
 <snipped>
23  For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Emphasis mine)

Notice Ron, that in this context, the "all" of verse 23 is all-inclusive.
That means that unless an exception is made, that is, Jesus being without
sin, no one, not even Mary, is exempt. Read on:

Luke 1:46  And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
 47  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR. (Emaphasis mine)

Now Ron, who but a sinner would call God her SAVIOUR?!?!? Keep reading Ron,
and learn from your own scriptures:

Luke 2:21 ¶ And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of
the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before
he was conceived in the womb.
 22  And when the days of HER PURIFICATION according to the law of Moses
were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the
Lord;

Now Ron, compare this with:

Leviticus 12:2  Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have
conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days;
according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be
unclean.
 12:3  And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
 12:4  And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and
thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary,
until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
 12:5  But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as
in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying
threescore and six days.
 12:6 ¶ And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for
a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering,
and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, *FOR A SIN OFFERING*, unto the door of
the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: (Emphasis mine)

Ron, have you noticed Lev. 12:6 (just above)? It says that the offering Mary
was to present on the eighth day, when the presentation occurred in the
temple, was to be AN OFFERING FOR **SIN**.  Did you get that last word?
SIN!!!

Now Ron, try to follow me here. Borgia, according to Pius, believed and
taught the immaculate conception, even though it only became "official"
dogma in 1850. This means that he was in direct contravention of apostolic
teachings on Mary being sinless. Moreover, Jesus is the ONLY exception that
is ever made in the bible as to men being sinners. There is not one single
verse that teaches Mary, or anyone else except Jesus, was sinless. In fact,
the bible teaches the very opposite. Ergo, Borgia mislead the faithful.

Now for #2
I never claimed, at any time, that the bible required elders or bishops to
be sinless. This is a strawman you've made up to try and discredit my
arguments, and it isn't even a good one.

What I said was this: that the qualifications of an elder, a bishop and a
deacon, were very clear that those, and only those who were BLAMELESS (Tit
1:6; 1Tim 3:2) and "[h]olding fast the faithful word..." (Titus 1:9; 1Tim
3:9), could hold this office. So Ron, instead of simply objecting to my post
with a strawman argument, why don't you carefully read the context and show
me where I'm wrong. And please spare me the pre-digested mush that has been
fed to you by the Holey Catholic Church. I already know what they teach, I
was a catlic for 32 years before I renounced that church when I became an
evangelical Christian. Show me the apostolic teaching that would allow a man
like Borgia to rightfully hold the office of first bishop of the Christian
church.

Borgia was a political leader and a warrior betwen the years 1476? - 1507.
Can you show me, in the biblical passages cited above, how a man who was a
military leader could be a bishop, when the bible teaches that a bishop must
NOT be a striker (1Tim 3:3), AND must have a good report from those outside
(1Tim 3:7). History knows the Borgias as being treacherous, full of intrigue
(lies), bent on political power and willing to do almost anything to achieve
it? I await your reply.

• Previous message: (Ron) Borgia to Ron
• Next message: (Ron) Borgia to Ron
• Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]