(Ron) Borgia to Ron
Helen Willis hhiwater@BRIGHT.NET
Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:40:46 -0700 (00893738446, 3545177D.38A9@bright.net)
Claire E. O'Connor wrote:
>
> Helen Willis wrote:
>
> > Brian Dean wrote:
> > >
> > > HELEN
> > > I see Ron is claiming an infallible source of moral direction from the
> > > Catholic Church.
> > >
> > > I would like to ask him some of the same questions we asked Claire.
> > > Ron, what does your church say about Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander
> > > VI)? If the church is an infallible source of moral guidance, then how did this
> > > guy end up as pope?
> > >
> > > If your church is not an infallable source of moral guidance then don't
> > > you, like the rest of us mortals, have to think about what you feel
> > > about the right and wrong of a thing, perhaps having the wisdom to
> > > consult people or books that have proven themselves to be wise to you
> > > in the past, and then make your own best judgement on the morality of a
> > > given situation? Isn't this the root of all human morality?
> > >
> > > RON
> > > The Holy Spirit will not permit a pope to pronounce in error on
> > > matters of faith and doctrine when the conditions for speaking
> > > infallibly are met. This is not based on the virtue of the particular
> > > pope, but on the Power of the Holy Spirit. All popes, just as other
> > > human beings (except Mary and Jesus), sin to a greater or lesser degree.
> >
> > HELEN:
> > Are you claiming that Borgia listened to the voice of the "Holy Spirit"?
> > Did he do this before or after his orgies in the papal palaces? Do you
> > really think anything would have constrained this guy from anything that
> > he wanted to do? I believe that one of the things he was accused of was
> > having sex with his daughter Lucrezia, if he wasn't restrained from
> > that, do you really think he would have been restrained from misusing
> > any of his papal powers? Remember this is the guy whose hachet man was
> > his son, Cesare, who he made a cardinal and on whom Machiavelli
> > supposedly modeled "The Prince". I don't think anyone would claim any
> > restraining influence on this family other than self interest.
>
> CLAIRE
>
> But this pope didn't issue any directives about matters of faith and morals. Ron
> isn't claiming that Borgia had guidance from the Holy Spirit in his personal
> behavior.
HELEN:
So are you claiming the Holy Spirit stopped him from using the powers of
his office for personal gain? He used his power to excommunicate and
declare people heretic to kill an honest priest that opposed him. You
told that story yourself. Cersare was truly the pope's hatchet man, by
the way. He had private agents whom he supposedly used to kill several
people, most of which was to advance his father's agenda. Lucrezia
Borgia was famous for poisoning people. Some of which she was accused of
doing at her father's request. I would guess he saw no profit in making
an ex cathedra ruling is the only reason that didn't. If priest can and
have used the church and the power of their office to rape little
children, why do you believe that the power to provide moral guidance
can not be misused by the Catholic Church? So let's try my question yet
again, since we know popes can be corrupt, how do you or any Catholic
know this pope or any pope isn't as corrupt as Borgia? I not saying he
is. I'm asking you, Claire and Ron, how you know as Catholics that a
pope isn't as corrupt as Borgia?
By the way didn't several popes sign off on the Inquisition? Was this
not an action of moral guidance by the church? Was the Inquisition
moral? How about the Catholic trials of witches? Didn't the church go
along with these things? Didn't the church in fact cause these things to
be?
Helen
hhiwater@bright.net