(Ron) Borgia to Ron
Helen Willis hhiwater@BRIGHT.NET
Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:21:07 -0700 (00893708467, 3544A263.6188@bright.net)
Brian Dean wrote:
>
> HELEN
> I see Ron is claiming an infallible source of moral direction from the
> Catholic Church.
>
> I would like to ask him some of the same questions we asked Claire.
> Ron, what does your church say about Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander
> VI)? If the church is an infallible source of moral guidance, then how did this
> guy end up as pope?
>
> If your church is not an infallable source of moral guidance then don't
> you, like the rest of us mortals, have to think about what you feel
> about the right and wrong of a thing, perhaps having the wisdom to
> consult people or books that have proven themselves to be wise to you
> in the past, and then make your own best judgement on the morality of a
> given situation? Isn't this the root of all human morality?
>
> RON
> The Holy Spirit will not permit a pope to pronounce in error on
> matters of faith and doctrine when the conditions for speaking
> infallibly are met. This is not based on the virtue of the particular
> pope, but on the Power of the Holy Spirit. All popes, just as other
> human beings (except Mary and Jesus), sin to a greater or lesser degree.
HELEN:
Are you claiming that Borgia listened to the voice of the "Holy Spirit"?
Did he do this before or after his orgies in the papal palaces? Do you
really think anything would have constrained this guy from anything that
he wanted to do? I believe that one of the things he was accused of was
having sex with his daughter Lucrezia, if he wasn't restrained from
that, do you really think he would have been restrained from misusing
any of his papal powers? Remember this is the guy who's hachet man was
his son, Casare, who he made a cardinal and about whom Machiavelli
supposedly model, "The Prince". I don't think anyone would claim any
restraining influence on this family other than self interest.
RON
> The difference in our moral judgement is that I seek to accomodate my
> actions to God's will even when it is inconvenient or burdensome to me.
> An atheist, ultimately, ends up with himself as the final arbiter of
> what is right. Even the words "right" or "moral" are self-defined. Those
> people you consult have no basis for their own decisions, so their
> judgement is not at all binding.
HELEN:
Are my words, "right" and "moral" any more or less self defined than
yours? At least I take the responsibility for examining my self
definitions. What is the basis of the people you consult decisions? I
would say mine have shown me a time tested moral compass. If the current
pope was as corrupt as Borgia would his judgement be binding for you?
How would you judge whether or not the pope was corrupt?
Helen
hhiwater@bright.net