Truth and Fact

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RICK G
Rick, that's exactly the point she was trying to make: TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE,
DEBATABLE, so she doesn't have to "label" anything: her post was clear. No
offense is intended here Rick, but sometimes I find that skeptics are such
nit-pickers. You and Till need to read that post over again, and stop
splitting hairs. ;-)

TILL
Rick, we are not splitting hairs.  We are merely accepting the meaning of
the word "truth" as it is recognized in standard dictionaries, and this
meaning is so recognized, because this is the way that those who speak
English use the word.  Truth is that which is factual or that which
conforms
to reality.  To argue that it is a "truth" that the Book of Mormon was
revealed to Joseph Smith by the angel Moroni would be to make belief
synonymous with "truth," but if a belief does not conform to fact or
reality, then it is not a truth.  It is simply something that someone
believes is truth, and there is a difference.

RICK G
Farrell, here is the original letter that Edie sent.

~~~~~begin quote
EHOWE
While I am not "Dick", I think I will answer this anyway.  Personally, I
make a distinction between "truth" and "fact".

"Truth" is an internal reality.  Religion falls into this category, as do
opinions.

"Fact" is an external reality, verifiable by objective observers.  This one
is a bit tricky:  Lets get simplistic for a moment.  "The Sky is blue" can
be a fact.  However, it is not always blue-- sometimes it is gray with
clouds, or black with night.  Facts can and do change.

Often I find that we frail human beings confuse truth with fact:  Here in
America, if a citizen is intent  on forcing me to accept his truth as fact,
and holds a gun to my head to accomplish this,  the fact of the matter is
that he is committing a crime.  His truth still is not a fact.

Fact:  The bible is a book with many authors, written over a span of time
in
various localities.

Truth: The bible is a book authored by God, and is suitable for educating
human beings of God's wishes for humanity.

Truth: The Bible is a book authored and used by men with differing agendas,
intent upon controlling the behavior various populations .

Facts are immutable.  Truths are debatable.

You are welcome to accept my definitions.  You are equally welcome to
reject
them.  However, I will be operating from this understanding in the future.

E. Howe
~~~~~~end quote

I wasn't arguing with the dictionary's definition, I was merely saying that
I thought you and Rick had missed the point she was trying to make: that
"truth" (belief) can be subjective. I don't think Edie was trying to change
the dic. definition, I believe she was saying that what is "truth" to some,
may not be "truth" to others. So how do we determine objective truth? We
ascertain whether it is actually a fact rather then just some belief
("truth") that someone holds. In short, I think Edie was using the word
"truth" the same way I would use belief. Beliefs are subjective, and need
to be proven. Established truth, on the other hand, is not subjective, as
it has been verified as fact.

I agree with you and Rick that the "truth" is a fact, as defined in the
dictionary. My dictionary, the Random House College Dictionary, in its
definition #2, states that "truth" is "conformity with fact or reality.

Perhaps, in view of the replies her posts have generated, Edie should have
used the word "belief" instead of truth, but that doesn't change the point
she was trying to make. Besides, words are often used in figurative and 
"imaginative" ways that very often defy dictionary definitions. Language is
often a very a fluid tool, so context is very important. Poetry is one
example. And no: I don't think Edie was being poetic. :-)

If Edie will respond to this post and tell us that she DIDN'T used the word
"truth" in a subjective or figurative way, signifying belief, but that she
was using it in abasolute way; then I will admit that I misread her post
and that you and Rick were right to make the observations she did. If not,
then I stand by what I said in my previous posts. Fair enough?


Rick Gaudreau
grgaud@sprint.ca

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