Fwd: Re: Fwd: The Blood of Jezreel
Brian Dean bridean@hotmail.com
Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:01:09 PST (00883645269, 19980101030113.29388.qmail@hotmail.com)
I am forwarding a response a friend of mine gave to this Bible
discrepancy because it "seems" reasonable to me. However, I have
noticed that what "seems" reasonable to me at first glance is not
always necessarily so, so I am forwarding it to the list. If
anyone knows why this is not reasonable, then please tell not only
me, but also tell my friend.
My friend's e-mail is
roncriss@hotmail.com
> Concerning these two verses I believe the problem here is that God
>made a promise to Jehu based on his keeping the bargain. Where Jehu
>failed was that he slaughtered all these people for idolatry but
>continued himself to be an idolator (2 Kings 10:31). There might
>even be a matter of Jehu sacrificing to Baal? Regardless, his
>slaughter was not out of conviction, but for his own ends. This is
>irrespective of whether his acts suited God's will or not. Another
>example of this sort of consequence might be the betrayal of Jesus
>by Judas, which served God's will irrespective of Judas's good or
>evil intentions.
>
>>Received: from 206.21.188.1 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
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>>From: "Brian Dean" <bridean@hotmail.com>
>>To: roncriss@hotmail.com
>>Subject: Fwd: The Blood of Jezreel
>>Content-Type: text/plain
>>Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:37:35 PST
>>
>>
>>
>>>From owner-errancy@infidels.org Tue Dec 30 09:47:14 1997
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>>>Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:43:45 -0800
>>>To: errancy@infidels.org
>>>From: Farrell Till <jftill@midwest.net>
>>>Subject: The Blood of Jezreel
>>>Cc: "R&S Turkel" <rstk3131@gdi.net>
>>>Sender: owner-errancy@infidels.org
>>>Precedence: bulk
>>>
>>>TILL
>>>There is no such thing as an "unanswerable" biblical contradiction.
>No
>>>matter how obvious an inconsistency or contradiction may be to those
>>who
>>>can look at the Bible with no inerrancy axe to grind, those who have
>>been
>>>indoctrinated to believe that the Bible is the "inspired, inerrant
>word
>>of
>>>God" will devise some way to "explain" the contradiction. This is
>>usually
>>>done by imaginative, far-fetched interpretations of the texts, which
>>turn up
>>>insights that were overlooked by those who allege inconsistency or
>>>contradictions. Inerrantists who discover these imaginative insights
>>will
>>>usually announce them with denunciations of skeptics for not looking
>>>carefully enough at the biblical text to see that there are no real
>>>contradictions.
>>>
>>>A case in point is the "blood of Jezreel," a term used in the Bible
to
>>>describe Jehu's massacre of the royal family of Israel. In my
>response
>>to
>>>the first chapter of Josh McDowell's ETDAV, I cited the writer of 2
>>Kings
>>>(who recorded Jehu's massacre) and the prophet Hosea as examples of
>>biblical
>>>writers who were not unified in their opinions. McDowell had claimed
>>that
>>>the Bible is unique in its harmony and unity in that 40 different
>>writers
>>>wrote 66 different books in different languages over a period of 1400
>>years,
>>>yet all that they wrote was perfectly unified in its themes and
>>content. I
>>>showed
>>>that the writer of 2 Kings obviously approved of Jehu's massacre at
>>Jezreel,
>>>because he had Yahweh declaring that because Jehu had "done that
which
>>is
>>>right in my eyes and has done to the house of Ahab according to all
>>that was
>>>in my heart," Jehu's sons through four generations would sit on the
>>throne
>>>of Israel (2 Kings 10:30), yet the prophet Hosea a century later
>>denounced
>>>the "blood of Jezreel" and declared that Yahweh would "avenge the
>blood
>>of
>>>Jezreel on the house of Jehu" and would "cause the kingdom of the
>house
>>of
>>>Israel to cease" (Hosea 1:4). The prophet Hosea, then, obviously
>>didn't
>>>view Jehu's massacre the same way the writer of 2 Kings did.
>>>
>>>I understand that this example of biblical inconsistency has been
>>>"explained" on different Christian web pages and that at least in one
>>case,
>>>I was singled out as an example of a skeptic who finds contradictions
>>in
>>>matters like this without first studying the total context to see
that
>>there
>>>really is no inconsistency. One would-be apologist remarked that he
>was
>>>"rather surprised that this rather easy problem shows up at the
>>Internet
>>>Infidels site," because he "expected better work than that." He went
>>on to
>>>say that he would "have to examine their problems more closely." I
>can
>>only
>>>hope that he will do exactly that, because if he really examines the
>>problem
>>>of biblical inconsistencies closely and does so objectively, he will
>>reach
>>>no other conclusion than that biblical inerrancy is a myth.
>>>
>>>So if there is an "easy solution" to this problem, what is it? Glen
>>Miller,
>>>an "apologist" whose web page several inerrantists have recommended
>>that I
>>>investigate, apparently claims that this "problem" is misunderstood
>>only
>>>because skeptics have failed to notice that Jehu went beyond what
>>Yahweh had
>>>commanded him to do. His position seems to be that Yahweh's command
>to
>>Jehu
>>>was to kill only the male descendants of Ahab, and he cited 2 Kings
>9:8
>>as
>>>his proof text: "I will cut off from Ahab every man-child." At
>Jezreel,
>>>however, Jehu went far beyond killing just the male descendants of
>>Ahab, but
>>>included in his massacre the following list of victims, which Miller
>>cited
>>>in a discussion of this problem on his web site. The spelling is
>>retained
>>>as it was in Miller's original.
>>>
>>>> 1.He kills Joram, a male descendent of Ahab's line (2 Kings
>>>> 9.24).
>>>>
>>>> 2.He then kills (mortally wounds) Ahaziah, king of Judah, NOT A
>>>> MALE DESCENDENT of Ahab (2 Kgs 9.27)..
>>>>
>>>> 3.He then kills Jezebel, the wife of Ahab, NOT A MALE
DESCENDENT
>>of
>>>> Ahab (2 Kings 9.30-33)...[However, SHE was the target of a
>>>> DIFFERENT prophecy of extinction, pronounced in his hearing in
>>both
>>>> settings. It is possible that this act was understood as part
of
>>>> his responsibility.]
>>>>
>>>> 4.He then kills 70 sons of Ahab, male descendents of Ahab (2
>>Kings
>>>> 10.1-8).
>>>>
>>>> 5.Notice that he piles the heads up in front of the town--this
>>was
>>>> a gruesome tactic of the Assyrian war machine.
>>>>
>>>> 6.He then kills all of Ahab's supporters, NOT MALE DESCENDENTS
>>>> of Ahab (2 Kgs 10.11).
>>>>
>>>> 7.He then kills 42 princes of Judah, on a diplomatic visit to
>the
>>>> Northern kingdom--NOT MALE DESCENDENTS of Ahab (2 Kings
>>10.12-14).
>>>>
>>>> 8.He then goes to Samaria and kills some more of Ahab's
>>>> descendents--of unspecified sex, but presumably some males (2
>>Kings
>>>> 10.17).
>>>>
>>>To Miller's list, I will add Jehu's massacre of the Baal worshipers,
>>which
>>>is recorded in 2 Kings 10:25-28, just before the writer of this book
>>patted
>>>Jehu on the back for doing all that was in Yahweh's heart regarding
>the
>>>house of Ahab. I include it, because another would-be apologist
>>complained
>>>that "Till reports not a peep about.. how Jehu trapped and killed a
>>number
>>>of priests of Baal." The fact is that these verses report that Jehu
>>killed
>>>not only a number of priests of Baal but also all of the Baal
>>worshipers in
>>>Samaria. Verse 28 states, "Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel."
>>>Anyway, I have been accused of not saying a "peep" about this
>massacre,
>>so I
>>>have now peeped about it and specified that according to the biblical
>>record
>>>it was one of the atrocities that Jehu committed in seizing control
of
>>the
>>>northern kingdom. I will now examine these 9 points to show that
they
>>do
>>>nothing to alter the obvious inconsistency in the two views of Jehu's
>>>massacre at Jezreel.
>>>
>>>We can get # 3 out of the way very quickly, because Miller apparently
>>>recognized that he would be quibbling if he tried to make an issue
>over
>>>Jehu's massacre of Ahab's wife Jezebel. Elijah's original
>>pronouncement of
>>>judgment against the house of Ahab (a pronouncement that he made
after
>>"the
>>>word of Yahweh allegedly came to him, 1 Kings 21:17) included a
>>sentence of
>>>death against Jezebel (vs:23-24), so Miller has grudgingly conceded
>>that
>>>killing her was probably a part of Jehu's responsibility. His
>>argument, as
>>>other inerrantists have also argued, is that in killing others
besides
>>>Jezebel and Ahab's male descendants, Jehu went beyond what Yahweh had
>>>commanded him to do, and this was the "blood of Jezreel" that the
>>prophet
>>>Hosea was referring to when he said that Yahweh would soon avenge the
>>blood
>>>of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu and "cause the kingdom of the house
>>of
>>>Israel to cease." We will see later that this is only a quibble that
>>cannot
>>>withstand textual scrutiny.
>>>
>>>The massacre of the Baal priests and worshipers can be speedily
>>dispatched
>>>too, because the OT clearly teaches that it was Yahweh's will to kill
>>those
>>>who worship other gods. Elijah's famous contest with the prophets of
>>Baal
>>>is recorded in 1 Kings 19, and after Yahweh's power exhibited through
>>Elijah
>>>proved to be stronger than Baal's, the people fell on their faces and
>>cried,
>>>"Yahweh, he is God! Yahweh, he is God!" Elijah then ordered that
the
>>>prophets of Baal be taken to the Brook Kishon and killed. He
>specified
>>that
>>>not one of them should escape (1 Kings 18:40). So what Jehu did in
>>killing
>>>all of the priests and worshipers of Baal in Samaria was nothing more
>>than what
>>>Yahweh's most famous prophet had done earlier, and Yahweh considered
>>Elijah
>>>so righteous that he took him directly into heaven in a whirlwind (2
>>Kings
>>>2:11). Furthermore, we have the case of Josiah in 2 Kings 22-23, who
>>led
>>>the most radical religious reformation in the history of all the
kings
>>of
>>>Judah and Israel. One of his righteous acts was to destroy all of
the
>>"high
>>>places" where the people worshiped false gods and "to kill all the
>>priests
>>>of the high places" (23:20). The writer of 2 Kings then said that
>>there was
>>>no king like unto Josiah, either before him or after him, who turned
>to
>>>Yahweh with all of his heart and soul and might (v:25). That would
>>have to
>>>include even David, whom 1 Kings 15:5 described as a man who had
never
>>>turned from anything that Yahweh commanded him except in the matter
of
>>Uriah
>>>the Hittite. With that kind of biblical approbation heaped upon
>others
>>who had
>>>massacred the worshipers and priests of false gods, not much room is
>>left to
>>>argue that in killing the Baal worshipers Jehu had brought the wrath
>of
>>>Yahweh down upon his house by going beyond what he had been divinely
>>>commissioned to do, which was to kill only the male descendants of
>>Ahab.
>>>Even without these examples to refer to, we would still have
>>Deuteronomy
>>>13:6-11 and 17:2-7, both of which command that those who worship
other
>>gods
>>>be taken and executed. Some would-be apologist may think that I was
>>trying
>>>to hide something by not saying a "peep" about this part of Jehu's
>>massacre,
>>>but all of the evidence I have just cited clearly shows that there is
>>no
>>>rationale at all for arguing that Yahweh was displeased with Jehu for
>>>slaughtering the worshipers of Baal. Hence, we can dismiss this
point
>>as
>>>nothing more than a failed attempt to find some way to reconcile 2
>>Kings
>>>10:30 and Hosea 1:4.
>>>
>>>We should keep in mind that Hosea said that Yahweh would soon avenge
>>THE
>>>BLOOD OF JEZREEL upon the house of Jehu. In other words, Yahweh's
>>vengeance
>>>would come down on the house of Jehu because of "the blood of
>Jezreel."
>>>However, some of the atrocities in Miller's list above include
>>massacres the
>>>were done outside of Jezreel. After killing the royal family of
>>Israel,
>>>Jehu "arose and departed, and went to Samaria" (2 Kings 10:12). It
>was
>>>while he was on this trip that he encountered the 42 princes of Judah
>>and
>>>killed them (vs:13-14), so if biblical inerrantists are going to
>insist
>>that
>>>skeptics should read the Bible more carefully before they allege
>>>inconsistencies and contradictions, they should heed their own advice
>>before
>>>they jump too hastily to manufacture "explanations" that can't be
>>sustained.
>>>Hosea pronounced judgment on the house of Jehu for the "blood of
>>Jezreel,"
>>>but these 42 princes were not killed at Jezreel, which was located
>>north of
>>>Samaria. In order to "depart" and go to Samaria, Jehu would have
>>traveled
>>>south toward Judah. It was on his way to Samaria that he encountered
>>the
>>>princes of Judah, so if Miller and his cohorts had read the biblical
>>text a
>>>little more carefully (as they advise skeptics to do), they would
have
>>known
>>>that this part of Jehu's massacre could not be considered the "blood
>of
>>>Jezreel."
>>>
>>>The same is true of "all that remained of Ahab in Samaria" (v:17),
>whom
>>Jehu
>>>killed after his arrival in Samaria. Whoever these victims of Jehu's
>>>rampage were, they could not be considered a part of the "blood of
>>Jezreel,"
>>>because they were not killed in Jezreel but in Samaria. This leaves
>us
>>with
>>>only three entries from Miller's list quoted above: (1) the killing
of
>>>Ahaziah, the king of Judah, (2) the killing of Joram's seventy sons,
>>and (3)
>>>the killing of Joram's "great men, his familiar friends, and his
>>priests"
>>>(2:11). In fact, we can say that there are only two entries left
from
>>>Miller's list (1 and 3), because Joram's seventy sons were male
>>descendants
>>>of Ahab and were therefore included in the orders that Yahweh gave to
>>Jehu
>>>to destroy the "house of Ahab." I will now show that inerrantists
>>cannot
>>>successfully argue that Jehu went beyond what he was commanded to do
>>when he
>>>killed Ahaziah and Joram's "great men, familiar friends, and
priests."
>>To
>>>do this will require a careful analysis of the divine instructions
>that
>>were
>>>allegedly given to Jehu at the time of his anointing as king of
>Israel,
>>and
>>>so I am going to do that in a separate posting. This one is already
>>long
>>>enough. I will show that Miller and his cohorts are the ones who
have
>>not
>>>been attentive to the biblical text. If they had been, they would
>>never
>>>have tried to "explain" this discrepancy by alleging that the house
of
>>Jehu
>>>was punished because Jehu went beyond what Yahweh had commanded.
>>>
>>>Farrell Till
>>>Skepticism, Inc.
>>>jftill@midwest.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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