(Nancy): fully divine and fully human
Greg, Nancy, and James Todd todds@pa.net
Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:59:05 -0500 (00887875145, 199802190159.UAA02192@emh1.pa.net)
VANHOOSE
>Nancy,
> I have been trying to figure out how else I can explain the nature of
>Jesus to you. I'm sorry that you find what I say nonsensical.
NANCY
Well, I find the "explanations" of xtian theologians to be nonsensical, too,
so I guess you are in good company. It is hard to explain nonsense.
VANHOOSE
However,
>if Jesus is who He says He is, He is entirely unique.
NANCY
That's a mighty big if. Moreover, the various gospels paint differing
pictures of who Jesus was and what he did, depending upon which sort of
theology each author was trying to advance. And those pictures are often
contradictory. Certainly the Jesus of Mark is very different from the Jesus
of John.
Were Jesus's miracles caused by faith, as Mark says (6:5-6 So he was not
able to perform any mighty deed there, apart from curing a few sick people
by laying his hands on them. He was amazed at their lack of faith. NAB) Or
was faith caused by miracles (Jn 2:11 Jesus did this as the beginning of his
signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began
to believe in him. 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence
of his disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written
that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that
through this belief you may have life in his name.)
Son of God is a term used by the Hebrews to denote an annointed king. The
Jews found claims that Jesus was God to be blasphemous - an annointed one, a
messiah, was not God, and for Jesus to claim to be a messiah and God was
blasphemy.
VANHOOSE
There has never
>been anyone else like Him.
NANCY
Really? Ancient traditions are full of miracle workers. Some of them were
even born of virgins. Ancient histories recount many signs and wonders.
Prophets were a dime a dozen. Even the NT admits that there were other
miracle workers and prophets roaming around. Of course, they were "false
prophets" while Jesus was the "real deal," but Jesus wasn't much of a
prophet, and his miracles were not even original, borrowed, as they were,
from the OT. Even Satan has the power to work many wonders. For all I know,
the gospels are just an attempt by Satan to keep us from the one true faith,
$cientology. Jesus, unique? Heck, even Buddha's disciples could walk on water:
"One of the stories told by Buddhist missionaries, who were in Syria and
Egypt as early as the second century B.C., similarly concerns the power of
faith granted to a disciple of Buddha: A disciple who wanted
'to visit Buddha one evening . . . found that the ferry boat was missing
from the bank of the river Aciravati. In faithful trust in Buddha he stepped
onto the water and went as if on dry land to the very middle of the stream.
Then he came out of his contented meditation on Buddha in which he had lost
himself, and saw the waves and was frightened, and his feet began to sink.
But he forced himself to become wrapt in his meditation again and by its
power he reached the far bank safely and reached his master.'" [Randal
Helms, _Gospel Fictions_, p. 81
Sounds a lot like MT 14:28-33, doesn't it.
VANHOOSE
>So how can you use human logic to define Him?
NANCY
Is this your response to the illogic of claiming that someone is fully human
and fully divine? Since you can't logically define Jesus, then you must
admit that Jesus is illogical. I can't use human logic to define the
Invisible Pink Unicorn, either. She is fully pink and fully invisible. And
She is certainly unique. There is only one Invisible Pink Unicorn, accept no
substitutes.
VANHOOSE
I'll work on it some more. I don't think it is so much a matter
>of explaining contradictions as reconciling several different truths
>that are all true at the same time.
NANCY
Truths that contradict cannot all be true.
VANHOOSE
Again, some of this is out of the
>realm of everyday experience. Isn't that how a miracle would be
>defined?
NANCY
Well, perhaps. But many of the miracles attributed to Jesus are impossible
because they violate physical laws. There is no evidence that these miracles
ever occurred and there is mucho evidence that these miracles could not have
occurred. What criteria do you use to decide which supernatural claims to
accept and which to reject?
VANHOOSE
> Let me ask you a question. If you were an omnipontent, infinite God,
>and wanted to give mankind a more intimate, personal, "object lesson" as
>to who you are, and you determined to become a man in order to
>demonstrate these qualities, how would you go about demonstrating that
>you were more than just a mere human being?
NANCY
Are you claiming that this is what Yahweh was doing when he sent part of his
"essence" or "substance" or whatever to Galilee and Judea to die like a
common criminal on a Roman cross in order to save humankind from Yahweh's
punishment? Why did God required that a part of his "essence" be killed and
resurrected before he would grant salvation to the humans he created? He's
supposed to be a just and loving god, so why doesn't he just forgive the
sins of the poor humans to whom he gave their sinful nature? Why doesn't he
reward or punish based upon behavior and not belief? Why is he so vengeful,
bloodthirsty, and sadistic? Why does he kill babies and fetuses?
The performance of so-called miracles is really not a very effective way for
a god to reveal himself to people who believe in all sorts of superstitions.
One of the Roman emperors, Tiberius, I think (my Suetonius is at school so I
can't check it), restored a blind man's sight by placing his spittle on the
man's eyes. Do you believe this really happened? If not, why not? Do you
believe that Jesus healed a blind man by placing his spittle on his eye? (MK
8:23-25) If so, why do you believe the claim about Jesus, but reject the
claim about Tiberius?
Nancy Todd
todds@pa.net
>
>Pat
>
>
Miracle (Latin mirari, "to wonder at"), an event, apparently transcending
human powers and the laws of nature, that is attributed to a special divine
intervention or to supernatural forces.
Stories of miracles are a common feature of practically all religions. In
some societies, a shaman is believed to have the power to heal through
contact with outside forces. Many religious leaders and founders-including
Zoroaster, Confucius, Lao-tzu, and Buddha-have been credited with miraculous
powers. Moses and the prophets of Israel were said to have performed
miraculous acts at God's bidding. Muslim tradition includes accounts of the
miracles of Muhammad, such as his extraordinary healings.
More attention has been given to miracles in Christianity, however, than in
any other religion. Miracles have been ascribed not only to Jesus Christ but
also to several of his immediate followers and to Christian saints up to the
present time. The miracles of Christ recorded in the Gospels are an integral
part of the New Testament narrative and include raising the dead,
transforming water into wine, feeding thousands with a small amount of food,
casting out demons, and healing the sick and deformed. The most important
miracle of the New Testament is the resurrection of Christ. Under the
influence of Greek philosophy, Christian writers came to accept the idea
that miracles possess evidential value, that is, they provide evidence that
God is at work in the world.
More recently, as a result of the historicocritical method (see Biblical
Scholarship), the Gospel miracles are widely regarded as having been written
more to inculcate religious truths than to record historical events. Thus,
the significance of the miracle lies in its meaning rather than in the event
itself. From this point of view, the primary aim of a miracle story is to
show that God directs and intervenes in human history.
Miracles have played an important role in the history of religions. The
traditionally close connections between miracles and faith, which tend to
reinforce each other, explains why in new religious movements and spiritual
revivals, the occurrence of the miraculous, especially in healing, plays
such a prominent part.
"Miracle," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia. (c) 1993-1997 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.