Till: logical argument
Farrell Till jftill@midwest.net
Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:49:43 -0800 (00887766583, 2.2.32.19980217194943.006db2fc@midwest.net)
At 11:29 AM 2/16/98 -0600, Walter Nusbaum wrote:
>Farrel,
>
>I may have been given false information, but from what I heard, you became
real bitter when no one would support you in your overseas mission work
years ago...this began your animosity towards the faith. Is this correct?
Also, you keep asking for a logical argument...I gave you one a year ago,
and you wormed your way around it, holding to the most untenable views. I
will give it again, and I would like to see if you could make it more clear
for me.
>
>1) Whatever begins to exist, has a cause.
>2) The universe began to exist.
>3) Therefore the universe had a cause.
>
>If I recall, you proposed the eternal nature of the universe...that's how
you got out of number two, however, what did you do with number one?
>
TILL
I have explained to you many times that I will not engage in private e-mail
discussions with anyone, because they will involve more time than I have to
invest in writing postings that will be seen by just one person. In your
case, I won't even engage in discussions with you on the list for reasons
that I will mention later. Since you have brought up rumors that circulate
in the Church of Christ about me, I am going to respond to them on the list.
Since the Church of Christ has no missionary organization, every preacher
who wants to be a missionary must assume the responsibility of finding
congregations who will provide financial support. Sometimes it is very
difficult to do this, but in my case no special hardships were encountered.
When I first went to France, I was supported by the Church of Christ in
Kennett, Missouri, and other congregations in the area who assisted this
church through their contributions. This support was obtained by writing
letters to churches to inform them of my desire to be a missionary and then
going to speak about my plans. I spent two years in France under the
support of this church and returned home when I was injured rather severely
in an automobile crash in Metz, France. When I returned to France, I was
supported by the Church of Christ in Vicksburg, Mississippi, which was
assisted in its sponsorship by some of the same churches that had helped me
before. I spent three years there the second time, and I returned home at
my request because I had begun to experience serious doubts about the Bible.
This rumor you mentioned is being circulated by Jerry McDonald, who was
probably no older than 10, if even that old, when I returned from France
the second and last time, so he could have no personal knowledge of my
missionary activities. He bases this claim on a couple of articles that I
wrote for *The Firm Foundation* (a Church-of-Christ paper) in which I
criticized the Church of Christ for its poor record in missionary work and
for the difficulty that it imposes on missionaries, who have to spend so
much time raising funds for their work. The intention of the articles was
to try to shame this church into increasing its support of missionary work
in general, but it had nothing to do with my decision to quit the church, a
decision that was based on problems of contradictions, inconsistencies, and
absurdities I had found in my biblical studies. In other words, I had become
convinced that I had been sold a bill of goods about the Bible that I had
learned was not true.
When I returned to France the second time, I learned that an American
missionary had gone to France with practically no support at all but had
gone on "faith" that the support would be forthcoming. I learned that he
and his family were practically destitute, so I wrote letters and published
articles about his situation in which I tried to drive home the point that
this was a deplorable situation to have in a church that claimed to be THE
church. McDonald may have found some of those articles too, but anything I
said in them was said not on my own behalf but in order to secure support
for the other missionary. A couple of months later, this missionary
traveled about 80 miles to see me and to thank me for my efforts on his
behalf. My efforts had secured him the financial support he had needed. So
you see, I was actually able to secure support not only for myself but for
another missionary too.
I might just tell you that you should be suspicious of anything that Jerry
McDonald may say about me. Those who were on this list when he was a member
of it and who were on his list when he kicked me off know that the man hates
me. I honestly believe that his hatred of me is rooted in the embarrassment
that I have caused him in debates that we have had.
By the way, have you not heard the other rumor about me, which claims that I
was brought home from France because I was caught stealing missionary funds?
I traced this one back to H. A. Dobbs whom I had debated on the issue of
biblical prophecy. Anyone who will watch the tapes of that debate will
easily see why Dobbs would be interested in defaming me. At my debate with
Jerry Moffitt in Portland, TX, in 1993, one of the lectureship panelists
talked to me about this rumor and told me that when he first heard it, he
had remarked, "What missionary funds?" This fellow had once been a
missionary to Japan, and so he knew that it was highly unlikely that I would
have had access to "missionary funds" that I could steal. All such rumors
as these have been circulated by those who want to discredit a former
preacher that they have been unable to discredit in public debate. I'm an
embarrassment to them, and so they have to try to explain me in some way
other than just admit that I left them because of intellectual reasons.
As for your syllogism, I will tell you what I have already told you. I do
not intend to invest time in discussions with you, because in the past I
have spent hours developing and posting arguments to you that you ignored.
The last time I did this, I even secured a promise from you that if I would
take the time to send my arguments, you would respond to them. I did, and
you didn't. You left the list for months and just recently came back. I
have three files in excess of 60K that I am now working to respond to. One
of them was sent by a Bible professor at a Baptist seminary, and another was
posted on a web site in response to articles I have written. Attending to
these as they should be attended to will take a lot of time, so I will not
engage in internet discussions with those who have demonstrated in the past
that they will cut and run when the going gets too rough for them. This is
why I am presently ignoring all of Matt Bell's postings. He made the claim
that what the Bible requires for salvation is "crystal clear," but I had
gathered from other postings from him that he did not believe that baptism
is essential for salvation. He agreed to debate this subject with me, and
in my honest opinion, I pinned him to the wall on it. He left the list
without ever responding to many of my postings, and now he has come back as
if nothing has happened and everyone has forgotten how he ran out on the
other discussion.
Yes, I know, you and Matt both will probably plead that you were so busy
that you just had to take time off, but I'm busy too. All I know is that
you both made promises that you didn't keep. Why should I think anything
would be different this time?
I noticed in the menu window that you have sent other postings to me, so I
hope you will understand why I am not going to open them.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net