Claire to Farrell Till
Brian Dean bridean@worldnet.att.net
Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:04:18 -0500 (00887367858, 19980213045614.AAA6807@briandea)
> > BRIDEAN
> > Personally, I don't care if you post the Catholic position. The rightful skeptic
> > reply is "Why should we accept the Catholic position?". You are within your
> > rights to ask "Why should I accept pagan theories?" as well. At least the
> > atheist says why pagan theorys are likely FOR HIM. I understand that
> > you have also posted the reasons why the Catholic "explanation" is likely
> > for you, but your explanations with MY responses are
> > 1) I believe the Catholic church because there are new things about the
> > Catholic faith that I like that I recently discovered after talking to Fr.
so-and-so.
> > A1) I too was in the same boat you are in now. However, did you know that
> > the Catholic church says that you MUST believe in EVERYTHING THAT
> > THE BIBLE ASSERTS TO BE TRUE? Therefore, many of the contradictions
> > that you would normally dismiss as having nothing to do with faith, morals,
> > or salvation MUST BE EXPLAINED.
> > Having said that, I agree with most skeptics here that just because you don't
> > fully understand something does not mean that you shouldn't reject it.
> > Otherwise we would have to spend enormous amounts of time trying to
> > understand all of the religions of the world because we certainly don't want
> > to fall into the trap of rejecting something we don't understand.
> > So, let me ask you, do you understand the cargo cults of South America?
> >
> > Are there any more reasons that you claimed to be Catholic (I can't think of
> > any)? Also, if I misrepresented your position, please clarify your position
> > for me and explain based on that why Catholicism is different from that
> > perspective than say Aborigine (sp?) Animism.
>
> CLAIRE
> Dear Brian:
>
> There are reasons I have for being Catholic which I have not discussed
> on this list. I guess I have a very emotional attachment to my Catholic
> faith, and this attachment has grown stronger since I began
> participating in the adult religious education classes sponsored by my
> church. I think that these religious education classes have engaged my
> intellect as well as my emotions.
>
BRIDEAN
I also find Catholicism emotionally appealing for many of the same reasons
that you do. I took Mariology in college from Mark Miravalle (who is somewhat
famous) and did well in it because it was something that interested me.
The problem is that I also see a lot of baggage that you have to carry as
a Catholic. I simply decided that the baggage wasn't worth the few cool
emotional things about the faith.
What started this, if the list doesn't mind this EXTREME tangent, was I
received what I thought was a message from God telling me that I am in
fact eternally damned. Not only that but that it didn't really matter what
I did (i.e. go to confession, become born again, whatever) because I had
commited a sin, or certain sins that irrevocably changed my path forever
(the unforgivable sin in a sense). This created the condition in me that I
can not do any of these things that would normally save someone else
in any way that would be sincere. I had the overwealming sense that
Isaiah 6:9-10 for example was speaking directly to me (this was when
I was in Steubenville during Bible class).
Now I told priests, friends, ect. about this message and they said that
the message was not from God. Yet when they gave me explanations as
to WHY it was not from God I immediately saw very plausible counter
responses. This got me to start to wonder whether or not ANY
experience was really from God and how to determine if it is or not. I
found out that there is no reliable way of determining what is, or is not,
from God, Once I found that out, it was easy to believe that I just made
the whole experience up in my head. But not only that experience, but
ANY experience I EVER had of God. It was mere psychological wish
fulfillment.
CLAIRE
> As I mentioned before, I had doubts about my faith a couple of years
> ago. But even if I had decided to become an atheist, I would probably
> have called myself a "Catholic atheist", because my Catholicism is part
> of my identity. I could not see myself converting to some other
> religion. The Roman Catholic tradition is as old as any Christian
> tradition there is. I find that to be compelling (though I am sure
> virtually no one else on this list does).
>
BRIDEAN
The Orthodox traditions are even older. Many of the Roman Catholic traditions
didn't start until the middle ages whereas the Orthodox have traditions which
go back much further than that. Is is alledged that the liturgy of St. John
was actually written by the apostle John himself (or was it St. Luke, I forget).
CLAIRE
> I enjoy the externals- I think that the Mass is beautiful. I love the
> Sacraments. I love the devotions to Mary. I like the sense of community
BRIDEAN
I never got a sense of community. But I admit that this is difficult with ME.
I am not really a social kind of guy (I go home right after work and play with the
computer all night, doesn't do many wonders for your social life, but then I
never really had a social life anyway even when I didn't have a computer).
CLAIRE
> I feel in my church. My family is Catholic. My reasons for wanting to be
> Catholic won't convince anyone here, because most of my reasons are not
> rational or logical.
BRIDEAN
Oh, I am not immune to these things myself. There is part of me that wants to
go back to the church for these reasons. I just don't find them to be good enough
reasons.
> CLAIRE
> Brian, I freely admit that the Roman Catholic Church has committed many
> terrible wrongs during its history. I have admitted that before on this
> list. But I frequently feel that the RC Church is being singled out by
> people on this list.
BRIDEAN
Wow an anti-Catholic conspiracy! I never saw any posts about the Catholic
church when you were away for awhile. But maybe that was part of the
conspiracy? :-) Seriously, I think that they merely talk about the Catholic
church because YOU bring it up. They don't seem to talk about it much
in your absense unless I bring it up (which I usually only do so to say that
I am a FORMER Catholic).
CLAIRE
I thought about entitling the Roman Catholic subsection "The Roman Catholic Church:
Responsible for All of the Evils in the World Over the Past Two Thousand Years, and None
of the Good Things."
BRIDEAN
When has ANYBODY on the list said this?
CLAIRE
> I am not a cafeteria-style Catholic. I am more orthodox than people
> might think. The RC Church has made it easy for me in many ways by
> accepting evolution and an old universe, as well as the work of Bible
> scholars. I am proud that the RC Church has repented of its past
> opposition to some scientific discoveries and apologized for wrongs it
> has committed in the past.
BRIDEAN
Technically speaking, in the case of Galileo for example, the church did
order Galileo to not teach that the earth revolved around the sun as FACT.
But he was allowed to teach it as THEORY. What happened was certain
forged documents were sent to Rome claiming that Galileo was teaching
it as FACT and disobeying the rule. Galileo was put under house arrest.
It was discovered recently that these documents were forged. But Galileo
was treated better by the Catholic church than protestants treated Kepler
(I think?) for teaching the same thing. The protestants burned him at the
stake.
> > BRIDEAN
> > How about, "All we want to do is make fun of Christians without going through
> > the pains of making rational arguments or pointing out Bible contradictions"
> > christfun@infidels.org.