Claire to Farrell Till
Claire E. O'Connor claireoc@softdisk.com
Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:40:06 -0600 (00887362806, 34E3C096.6D7D@softdisk.com)
Brian Dean wrote:
>
>
> BRIDEAN
> Personally, I don't care if you post the Catholic position. The rightful skeptic
> reply is "Why should we accept the Catholic position?". You are within your
> rights to ask "Why should I accept pagan theories?" as well. At least the
> atheist says why pagan theorys are likely FOR HIM. I understand that
> you have also posted the reasons why the Catholic "explanation" is likely
> for you, but your explanations with MY responses are
> 1) I believe the Catholic church because there are new things about the
> Catholic faith that I like that I recently discovered after talking to Fr. so-and-so.
> A1) I too was in the same boat you are in now. However, did you know that
> the Catholic church says that you MUST believe in EVERYTHING THAT
> THE BIBLE ASSERTS TO BE TRUE? Therefore, many of the contradictions
> that you would normally dismiss as having nothing to do with faith, morals,
> or salvation MUST BE EXPLAINED.
> Having said that, I agree with most skeptics here that just because you don't
> fully understand something does not mean that you shouldn't reject it.
> Otherwise we would have to spend enormous amounts of time trying to
> understand all of the religions of the world because we certainly don't want
> to fall into the trap of rejecting something we don't understand.
> So, let me ask you, do you understand the cargo cults of South America?
>
> Are there any more reasons that you claimed to be Catholic (I can't think of
> any)? Also, if I misrepresented your position, please clarify your position
> for me and explain based on that why Catholicism is different from that
> perspective than say Aborigine (sp?) Animism.
CLAIRE
Dear Brian:
There are reasons I have for being Catholic which I have not discussed
on this list. I guess I have a very emotional attachment to my Catholic
faith, and this attachment has grown stronger since I began
participating in the adult religious education classes sponsored by my
church. I think that these religious education classes have engaged my
intellect as well as my emotions.
As I mentioned before, I had doubts about my faith a couple of years
ago. But even if I had decided to become an atheist, I would probably
have called myself a "Catholic atheist", because my Catholicism is part
of my identity. I could not see myself converting to some other
religion. The Roman Catholic tradition is as old as any Christian
tradition there is. I find that to be compelling (though I am sure
virtually no one else on this list does).
I enjoy the externals- I think that the Mass is beautiful. I love the
Sacraments. I love the devotions to Mary. I like the sense of community
I feel in my church. My family is Catholic. My reasons for wanting to be
Catholic won't convince anyone here, because most of my reasons are not
rational or logical.
> > CLAIRE (in reference to the proposal to split the list into subsections)
> >
> > One subsection should be entitled "All Christians are Stupid"
> > [xianstupd@infidels.org]. Another could be: "The Roman Catholic Church -
> > the Focus of Evil in Past and Present" [rcbad@infidels.org].
>
> BRIDEAN
> 1) A more accurate statement from a skeptic would be, "From what I have
> observed, I have not seen an intelligent Christian defense of the Christian
> faith."
> 2) Even the Roman Catholic Church admits to doing wrong in the past so
> I don't see what your point with "...Focus of Evil in Past and Present"
> is. It seems to me that if the Catholic Church says that it has done
> wrong in the past, then you as a good Catholic should agree with it
> because the church says so. Or do you pick and choose what parts of
> church teaching you believe just like a "cafeteria-style Catholic" would?
CLAIRE
Brian, I freely admit that the Roman Catholic Church has committed many
terrible wrongs during its history. I have admitted that before on this
list. But I frequently feel that the RC Church is being singled out by
people on this list. I thought about entitling the Roman Catholic
subsection "The Roman Catholic Church: Responsible for All of the Evils
in the World Over the Past Two Thousand Years, and None of the Good
Things."
I am not a cafeteria-style Catholic. I am more orthodox than people
might think. The RC Church has made it easy for me in many ways by
accepting evolution and an old universe, as well as the work of Bible
scholars. I am proud that the RC Church has repented of its past
opposition to some scientific discoveries and apologized for wrongs it
has committed in the past.
> >These topics seem to be of great interest to some people on this list. I am
> > sure that others can come up with more.
>
> BRIDEAN
> How about, "All we want to do is make fun of Christians without going through
> the pains of making rational arguments or pointing out Bible contradictions"
> christfun@infidels.org.
> >
> > TILL
> > How about coming up with "the Bible is the inerrant word of God" so that
> > we can discuss this? I didn't set up this list to discuss what
> > Catholics believe. Please try to focus on the claim that the Bible is
> > inerrant.
> >
> >
> > CLAIRE (new)
> > You're right, this list isn't set up to discuss what Catholics believe.
> > It is set up for atheists to discuss what atheists believe. I
> > understand that atheists are allowed to post accusations against the
> > Catholic Church, Mother Teresa, etc., but Christians have to "stick to
> > Bible errancy". It seems a bit one-sided to me, but I realize that life
> > isn't fair.
>
> BRIDEAN
> Actually, I agree with Claire here. If Till wants to force the list to focus on
> Bible errancy then he should complain about people making fun of Mother
> Theresa AS WELL AS people who merely post what the Catholic church
> says. Actually, Till should complain about this particular post by me as
> well because I do not address Bible errancy/inerrancy anywhere in this
> entire post. Be consistent Till!