(Nancy): fully divine and fully human

Adnan balboa19@idt.net
Thu, 12 Feb 1998 03:09:51 +0000 (00887274591, 3.0.5.32.19980212030951.0080bb40@idt.net) 

WALT

>Wool and cotton are poor analogies.  A better one, though still not

>perfect, would be water.  Ice and liguid water are both H(2)O, yet they are

>different forms.  In other words, their essesnce is the same, but the

>substance is in a different forms.  This is much better than your cloth

>illustration.


ADNAN
No, this would have been a better analogy if you could show that given
amount of water can be fully water, fully ice, and fully steam at the same
time. I don't think you can do that. Also, here is another critique of
"water, steam and ice" by a Muslim from the book "What Did Jesus Really Say?"

http://idt.net/~balboa19/chris/book2.zip

***************************
If I have three balls of clay and I press them together into one ball then
they become ONE but now it is impossible to retrieve the original three
exactly as they were originally.

If I have three bricks and I stack them above each other then I can
separate them, but I can not call the three bricks ONE brick. 

By far, the most common analogy given for the "Trinity" by the church is
that of the three forms of water, specifically, ice, liquid, and steam.
They say, just as water is "one" but with three "states" or three "forms,"
so too is God Almighty one but with three states.

On the face of it this appears to be quite a compelling argument. So let us
apply it to a few verses of the Bible in order to see whether it holds up
to scrutiny and is actually endorsed by the Bible. In other words, it is
necessary to see whether the Bible itself actually confirms such a picture
of God. Only then can we accept or reject this analogy.

If I have a cup of water which can become steam, liquid, or ice, then it is
not possible for me to drink the "liquid" while the "ice" and "steam"
remain inside the glass. It is not possible for the "liquid" to beseech the
ice to save it from being drunk while the ice stayed a safe distance away
and was not itself drunk. This is simple logic. In a similar manner, if
God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all merely three "personalities" or
three "states" for one being, namely God Almighty, then it is not possible
for one "personality" of God to DIE while the other two remained a safe
distance away unharmed by death (Mark 15:37, John 19:33, Romans 5:6,...etc.).

Some will then solve this dilemma, as seen in the previous section, by
claiming that Jesus (pbuh) did not actually "die," rather, he simply shed
his earthly "skin." His actual essence was not killed. In this case it is
necessary to ask: where then is the great sacrifice? If one of us has five
thousand coats, and he takes one off and throws it in the fire then puts on
a different one and says: "I did this as an ultimate sacrifice for you," is
this truly an ultimate sacrifice if he can simply create one thousand more
earthly "skins" to inhabit in place of the one he shed? Does his taking off
of his coat and putting on a new one after three days "atone" for the sins
of all of the "inherently wicked and sinful mankind" from the beginning of
time? "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God ... with all thy mind ... this
is the first commandment" Mark 12:30

There are many other situations in the Bible that contradict this analogy
and the theory of "three" gods. For example: 

Would it be logical to picture the "ice" form of a bucket of water praying
to the "steam" form of itself (e.g. Luke 6:12). Further, did water start
out as liquid and then decide to "beget" for itself another personality as
"ice" and then add on a third personality as "steam"? Did God start out
with one "personality" and then one day "beget" for Himself multiple
personalities to keep Him company?. Does He usually speak to His other
personalities and beseech them for salvation? (Matthew 27:46) Did He
sacrifice one of His personalities to "save" mankind? Do some of His
personalities have knowledge not available to others (Mark 13:32)? Are some
of His "personalities" more powerful than others (John 14:28)? Are some of
his personalities submissive to others (Luke 22:41-44)? Is this our mental
picture of God? How will we answer Him on the day of judgment when He asks
us about these claims we have made against Him?

In order to demonstrate the absurdity of this "ice, water, and steam"
theory, let us use the following analogy:

Military/Student Joe: 

Assume that "Joe" is a university student who is also serving in the army.
In such a case we might be able to say that there are two "personalities"
to Joe, a "student" personality and a "military" personality. Does this
mean that it is logical to imagine "student Joe" humbling himself before
"military Joe" and appealing to him to have mercy upon him while "military
Joe" sat some distance away accepting "student Joe's" pleas and considering
whether to grant them or not (Matthew 26:39)?

Further, if some killers attacked "student Joe" while he was in the
university, would it be logical for us to claim that "student Joe" ran for
the telephone and pleaded with "military Joe" to quickly come and save him?
Would it be logical to say that "military Joe" did not answer this plea and
"student Joe" was murdered in the university while "military Joe" remained
safe and unharmed in the military base?

Continuing, according to the Bible, God and Jesus are claimed to not be
equal in knowledge nor in power (Mark 13:32, John 14:28, etc.). So is it
then logical in the above analogy to claim that "military Joe" is stronger
than "student Joe" or that "student Joe" is smarter than "military Joe"?

It is always important when we are presented with a theory or "explanation"
regarding the claimed "Trinity" to carefully analyze it and apply it to the
Bible and test it thoroughly before accepting it. It is not at all
acceptable to say I can not explain it nor prove it, neither does the Bible
explicitly command me to have blind faith in this matter, yet since the
church told me to do so, therefore, I shall do so. Indeed, Jesus (pbuh)
wanted his followers to think, analyze, study, ask questions, and
interrogate. This is his very FIRST commandment (Mark 12:30). Indeed, the
Bible teaches us "For God is not [the author] of confusion" 1 Corinthians
14:33.

Let us conclude this section with a very eloquent example which was once
presented by the British scholar Richard Porson. One day, Porson was
discussing the "Trinity" with a Trinitarian friend when a buggy containing
three men passed by. "There," Porson's friend exclaimed "is an illustration
of the Trinity." Porson replied "No, you must show me one man in three
buggies, if you can."