for Ronie Moonie - who carried the cross?
Greg, Nancy, and James Todd todds@pa.net
Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:01:09 -0400 (00892015269, 199804080001.UAA20888@emh1.pa.net)
NANCY
First of all, Ronie, I thank you for your kind words. Below is the post on
who carried the cross. If I recall correctly, Dave Court has never responded
to it.
Nancy Todd
todds@pa.net
><snip>
NANCY
>
>So tell us, Dave, did Jesus carry his own cross, as Jn 19:17 says, or was
>Simon of Cyrene forced to carry the cross for Jesus, as the synoptics say
>(Mt 27:32, Mk 15:21, Lk 23:26)?
>
>(DAVE 2/23) Nancy: Thanks for the question. Why is this an either/or
>question? In which of the references you have listed does it say Simon
>carried the cross exclusively?
NANCY
Well, Luke certainly implies that Simon handles the cross-bearing duties:
23:26 And as they led him away [from the praetorium], having seized a
certain Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, they laid on
him the cross to carry behind Jesus.
So does Mark:
15:20-21
. . . And they led him out [of the praetorium]. And they compelled a
passer-by, Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, the father
of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross.
And so does Matthew:
27:32 As they were going out [of the praetorium] they came upon a man of
Cyrene, Simon by name; this man they compelled to carry his cross
Notice that all three of the synoptics have Simon pressed into duty as Jesus
is being led out of the praetorium. This shows that Jesus did not take up
the cross.
Additionally, the Greek itself indicates that Simon was pressed into service
as Jesus was being led out of the praetorium, and not at some point along
the journey to Golgotha.
MT uses a present participle (exerchomenoi - going out), which indicates
that the action of the participle was happening at the same time as the
action of the main verb "euron," they came upon. Luke uses "as" (os - omega
sigma) to indicate that they laid the cross on Simon as they were leading
Jesus from the praetorium.
DAVE
>Did he carry it from moment zero?
NANCY
Moment zero? I have no idea what moment zero is supposed to be. But the
synoptics do indicate that Simon was pressed into cross-bearing duty as
Jesus was being led from the praetorium.
DAVE
If you
>re-read these references they actually seem to infer that Simon began
>carrying the cross while the procession was in progress.
NANCY
The references don't infer anything. You are the one who infers. Look up the
words infer and imply in a dictionary. As I showed above, the verses
indicate, both in the English translation and the Greek, that Simon began
carrying the cross as Jesus was led out of the praetorium, not while the
procession was in progress. I think your inference is a matter of wishful
thinking, because there is no implication in the synoptics that Simon began
carrying the cross while the procession was in progress. In fact, the
implication is just the opposite, that Simon carried the cross from the
beginning.
DAVE
If this is so, who
>was carrying it prior to Simon?
NANCY
Well, it's not so, so no one carried the cross prior to Simon. The synoptics
are pretty clear that Simon carried the cross from the very beginning.
DAVE
>If this is your idea of errancy, your position is weak.
NANCY
Well, you haven't shown how my position is weak. Moreover, this is only one
of hundreds of contradictions and errors in the bible. You have to refute
every single one to demonstrate inerrancy. All I have to do is show one error.
DAVE
None of the
>references listed denies that Jesus carried the cross at any time, or that
>Simon was the sole carrier.
NANCY
This entire sentence doesn't make much sense. Did you really mean to say
that none of the verses I cited denies that Simon was the sole carrier? I
think I know what you are trying to say. You seem to be trying to say that
none of the verses cited states explicitly that Jesus didn't carry the cross
at some point, nor does any of them say explicitly that Simon and no one
else carried the cross. An argument from silence, and a very weak one at
that. The synoptics say that Simon was pressed into cross-bearing duty as
Jesus was being led from the praetorium. You say that since the synoptics
don't say that Jesus didn't carry the cross at all, that he may have carried
it at least for a moment or two.
However, Jn 19:17 says, "[s]o they took Jesus, and, bearing his own cross
(the Greek says 'bearing the cross for himself'), he went to the place
called the place of a skull." I think John speaks for itself. Jesus went
out to Golgotha carrying his own cross. Not only is Simon not mentioned,
there is absolutely no implication that anyone but Jesus carried the cross.
In fact, John implies in the strongest terms that Jesus alone carried the
cross. So even if I concede, for the sake of argument, that the syoptics
allow the possibility that Jesus may have carried the cross for at least a
moment or two, we have John saying, in very strong terms, that Jesus carried
his own cross to Golgotha. This doesn't allow for Simon or anyone else to
carry the cross for Jesus.
So in the end we have the synoptics saying that Simon carried the cross for
Jesus and John saying that Jesus carried the cross for himself. The
synoptics don't even hint that Jesus carried his own cross for even a
nanosecond, and John is very clear in stating that Jesus carried his own
cross to Golgotha.
Nancy Todd
todds@pa.net