How to get to heaven?

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> > On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 05:54:55PM +0800, Vaujin, Michael O. wrote:

> > > You really don't think the bible could be CRYSTAL clear if it was really

> > > inspired by God?


At some point, Jeff Epler wrote:

> > I think Lenny will happily maintain that it is our fault that we cannot

> > understand it---perhaps babbling about Adam's original sin if pressed.

> > But this is so much gibberish.  If I am being punished for Adam's sin,

> > then the verse about the sons not being punished for the sins of the

> > fathers is an outright lie.


On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 08:47:08AM -0400, Lenny Santee wrote:

> I do not teach or believe the doctrine of original sin.  If you wish to

> babble about it or even build a straw man go ahead.


Okay, so your position actually is that until a person sins, he is
heaven bound?  Doesn't this mean that at least some people (those who
died extremely young, for instance) will in fact reach heaven without
Jesus entering the picture?

> 

> Jeff

>   If it is a fact that God created us so

> > that we all had "free will" yet all freely choose to sin, that's as

> > absurd as Christians realize it is when atheists ask why their god

> > couldn't have created humans who freely choose to never sin.  

> 

> LENNY

> 

> Now here is an example of writing that could be taken any number of ways. 

> I am not sure what you are saying.  God did create us with free will.  No

> one can make you do anything.  You don't have to curse or lie or murder

> etc.  Part of being human is the ability to choose.  He could have made us

> animals but then we wouldn't be human.


Okay, I guess I'll have to try to repeat this for you, since I'm merely
human and merely a passable writer---not an infinite being with
(presumably) infinite knowledge about what makes writing good.

Do you believe that all men will in fact sin?  If so, does this mean
that men do not have the free will to never in fact sin?

If you assert that "all men will in fact choose to sin" and "all men
have free will" are not in fact contradictory, how is "all men will in
fact never choose to sin" in contradiction with "all men have free will"?
If there's no contradiction in the second, then the time-worn Free-will
defense to the problem of evil crumbles.  If there's some difference
between the two pairs of statements, I would like to know what it is.

Do you think it's merely a statistical near-certainty that all men will
in fact choose to sin?  If that's all it is, then people here and there
will be getting into heaven without Jesus' intervention, which was
something I didn't think was a part of your theology.  But I've been
wrong before.

Jeff
-- 
\/ jepler@inetnebr.com http://www.python.org/ (0|1(01*0)*1)+
Lewis's Law of Travel:
	The first piece of luggage out of the chute doesn't belong to
anyone, ever.

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