Sura 4:34

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At 09:54 AM 9/5/97 -0700, Helen wrote:


>Sura 4:34  Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one 

>superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. 

>Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has 

>guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them

and 

>send them to bed apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further 

>action against them. Allah is high, supreme.



>  The result of a woman taking man to court, unless she has/had a powerful 

>father or other male relative to speak for her, was/is that the court

ordered 

>the woman's husband or nearest male relative to beat the woman. Any women

who 

>would be a Moslem has no self pride or dignity. Women's testimony was not 

>worth as much as a man's by the Koran. I will have to look it up, but I 

>believe the inerrant Koran says a women's testimony is worth 1/4th of a 

>man's. Remember these two points when you read the reams of material Moslems 

>post on the rights women have under Islamic law. Moslems love to skip over 

>them.



ADNAN
As I said women were treated badly in Islam, Judaism and Christianity. But
now Helen claims that women are worse in Islam than they are in Judaism and
Christianity. I, of course, disagree and I say that women are worse in the
Bible than they are in the Quran. If position of women is better today in
the West or in Israel than Islamic world, the credit goes to secularism and
not to the Old or New testament. If we look back into the history, women
were much worse in the West than they were in the Muslim world. Let me
borrow from a Muslim apologist booklet:

WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN
TRADITION: 

http://www.msa-natl.org/SISTERS/articles/women_sherif_book.html

I will only post one thing regarding witness which Helen mentioned. You can
read the full text on the web.

Helen claims that woman's testimony is 1/4 than the man's testimony, which
is not correct since it is not 1/4, it is 1/2, and it is 1/2 in only
financial transactions.  This once again confirms that she really do not
know what she is talking about and is only repeating what she read in one
or two anti-Islamic books without doing any research. Even worse is her
claim that this somehow will prove that women are worse in the Quran than
the they are in the Bible. I will quote the part dealing with witness from :

WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN
TRADITION: 

http://www.msa-natl.org/SISTERS/articles/women_sherif_book.html

.................. begin quote ...........
7. BEARING WITNESS 

Another issue in which the Quran and the Bible disagree is the issue of
women bearing witness. It is true that the Quran has instructed the
believers dealing in financial transactions to get two male witnesses or
one male and two females (2:282). However, it is also true that the Quran
in other situations accepts the testimony of a woman as equal to that of a
man. In fact the woman's testimony can even invalidate the man's. If a man
accuses his wife of unchastity, he is required by the Quran to solemnly
swear five times as evidence of the wife's guilt. If the wife denies and
swears similarly five
times, she is not considered guilty and in either case the marriage is
dissolved (24:6-11). 

On the other hand, women were not allowed to bear witness in early Jewish
society. [12] The Rabbis counted women's not being able to bear witness
among the nine curses inflicted upon all women because of the Fall (see the
"Eve's Legacy" section). Women in today's Israel are not allowed to give
evidence in Rabbinical courts. [13] The Rabbis justify why women cannot
bear witness by citing Genesis 18:9-16, where it is stated that Sara,
Abraham's wife had lied. The Rabbis use this incident as evidence that
women are unqualified to bear witness. It should be noted here that this
story narrated in Genesis 18:9-16 has been mentioned more than once in the
Quran without any hint of any lies by Sara (11:69-74, 51:24-30). In the
Christian West, both ecclesiastical and
civil law debarred women from giving testimony until late last century. [14] 

If a man accuses his wife of unchastity, her testimony will not be
considered at all according to the Bible. The accused wife has to be
subjected to a trial by ordeal. In this trial, the wife faces a complex and
humiliating ritual which was supposed to prove her guilt or innocence (Num.
5:11-31). If she is found guilty after this ordeal, she will be sentenced
to death. If she is found not guilty, her husband will be innocent of any
wrongdoing. 

Besides, if a man takes a woman as a wife and then accuses her of not being
a virgin, her own testimony will not count. Her parents had to bring
evidence of her virginity before the elders of the town. If the parents
could not prove the innocence of their daughter, she would be stoned to
death on her father's doorsteps. If the parents were able to prove her
innocence, the husband would only be fined one hundred shekels of silver
and he could not divorce his wife as long as he lived: 

"If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders
her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman, but when I
approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the girl's
father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town
elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my
daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered
her and said I did not find your daughter to be a virgin. But here is the
proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth
before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish
him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the
girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name.
She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he
lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity
can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and
there the men of the town shall stone her to death. She has done a
disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her
father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy
22:13-21) 

Notes
12. Swidler, op. cit., p. 115. 
13. Lesley Hazleton, Israeli Women The Reality Behind the Myths (New York:
    Simon and Schuster, 1977) p. 41. 
14. Gage, op. cit. p. 142. 
.............end quote...........

ADNAN
None of the other things Helen mentioned proves that women are better
treated in Judio-Chrisian tradition than they are in the Quran. You can
read the full article on the web. I, by the way, do not agree with every
thing the article says and I know that women are not treated good in Islam
but they are not treated worse than the Bible.

Oh, by the way, if you ask a Muslim apologist about sura 4:34 he will say
that this verse does not prove that man is superior to woman. He will say
that this is mistranslation. Let me quote one of the apologist:

"6. Nowhere dow the Qur'an state that one gender is superior to the other.
Some mistakenly translate "qiwamah" or responsibility for the family as
superiority. The Qur'an makes it clear that the sole basis for superiority
of any person over another is piety and righteousness not gender, color, or
nationality: 

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made
you into nations and tribes that you may know each other. Verily the most
honored of you in the sight of Allah is (one who is) the most righteous of
you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
(Qur'an 49:13) "

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