Abortion, Euthanasia, the Pope, etc., Revisited...
Claire E. O'Connor claireoc@softdisk.com
Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:35:39 -0600 (00880266939, 34777A5B.49CA@softdisk.com)
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Abortion, Euthanasia, the Pope, etc., Revisited...
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>> {Original thread title: Schizophrenia, God & You -
>> Douglas Larson Sat 08 Nov 1997}
>> CLAIRE {Assisted Suicide, widows & orphans} - 11/8
>> I think 4 million dollars against an assisted-suicide initiative was
>> money very well spent. What I find tragic is that the Catholic Church
>> lost this one. I dread the future if assisted suicide becomes
>> commonplace. The ones who will be expected to commit suicide will most
>> likely be the poor who cannot afford good insurance. Also, I would guess
>> that women would be more likely to feel pressure to commit suicide, so
>> they won't be a "burden" to anyone. Most of the good Dr. Kevorkian's
>> "patients" have been women.
>>
>> The Catholic Church has been far from perfect, but it does have a record
>> of helping the needy find food, clothes and shelter.
>>
> CLAIRE {Assisted Suicide, Population Issues}
> .....
>> Now for the population explosion: Throwing abortion or contraceptive
>> services at people is not going to reduce the birth rate unless the
>> underlying incentives to have many children are removed. First and
>> foremost, the death rate of children under 5 must be reduced. Parents
>> who see that their children are likely to die early will have a lot of
>> children just to ensure that at least a few survive. For the cost of one
>> abortion, you could vaccinate hundreds of children against easily
>> preventable diseases, thus reducing their death rate. Leaving aside
>> "morality", abortion is simply not a viable method of birth control in
>> developing countries. Another problem is that children are viewed as
>> "assets" who can work when they are still very young and earn money for
>> their families. If children are banned from working and are instead
>> required to attend school, they will no longer be viewed as financial
>> assets, and this will reduce the incentive for parents to have many
>> children.
> STEVEN CARR
> ... I agree very much with what you wrote. Reducing infant mortality
> is very cheap and greatly to be encouraged.
> I only disagree with contraception. Many third world women want access
> to contraception as it enables them to plan their lives.
CLAIRE
Thank you, Steven. :)
In my two epidemiology classes, I learned about the "demographic
transition" that takes place in developing countries. Countries that
have very high (age-adjusted) death rates also tend to have high birth
rates. When the death rates (especially of infants and young children)
go down, the high birth rates do not immediately fall, but eventually
they will go down as people can be more assured of the survival of their
children. Western countries have already made the demographic
transition, and they have both low (age-adjusted) death rates and low
birth rates.
I don't think that artificial contraception is in and of itself a bad
thing (because a life is not being taken). I think that the Catholic
Church has had some good reasons for being against artificial
contraception (one reason is that they believe it has contributed to
greater promiscuity, which has had ill effects for society). Also, some
"contraceptives" are actually abortifacients; they destroy an
already-formed zygote.
>> IAN
> >
>> Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with you. I for one feel that ANYONE
>> who wishes to die should be allowed to for whatever reason. Why should
>> anyone be forced to suffer through a painful death when a physician can
>> help them end it peacefully? Christians have more empathy for a dying
>> dog than they have for one of their own kind.
>>
>> What you forget (or ignore) Claire, is that there are almost 6 billion
>> people on this planet. Many of them are here because of the Pope and
>> people like Mother Teresa. I don't know how much food, clothing,
>> medicine and education the Catholic church is contributing to Africa but
>> it damn sure isn't enough to keep the people from starving to death.
>>
>> I suppose you feel it is better that these people have lived their short
>> miserable lives than to have not lived at all but I don't agree with
>> you.
>>
>> I'm glad there are men like Jack Kevorkian with the balls to help
>> people end their miserable existence and I'm also happy that your
>> miserable God is too impotent to do anything about it.
>
> CLAIRE {Assisted Suicide, Population Issues}
> Ian, I am well aware that there are many people who don't agree with me.
> That does not make me wrong. If your view prevails, we will have a lot
> of people feeling pressured to commit suicide so as not to be a burden.
> IAN
> Few if any people would feel PRESSURED to commit suicide so as not to be a
> burden. If you have statistics on this show them but I have not heard of any.
> CLAIRE
>> I also think that widespread assisted suicide will reduce the incentives
>> to come up with new medical treatments - why bother when you can just
>> kill off the patient?! With all this cost containment going on, why
>> would people dare to demand the latest medical treatment (unless they
>> can pay for it themselves) when suicide is offered as an "option"? The
>> wealthy will have access to good medical treatment; the poor and middle
>> class will just have to commit suicide. Even a wealthy person may feel
>> pressured to commit suicide so as not to reduce the amount of money
>> available to his or her heirs.
> IAN
> Some of what you say is true but is it necessarily bad? As I said, there are
> almost 6 billion people in this world and they are destroying this planet at a
> rapid pace. What is the point in spending all this money in the last year or
> two of a persons life just to keep him/her alive and miserable? Why should a
> family have to spend every last dime they have and go into debt for years to
> come to keep someone miserable? I'm 67 years old and try to take reasonably
> good care of myself. I would hate to see the doctors and lawyers end up with
> what little I've saved and leave my wife penniless.
> IAN
> Let those who have the money pay for the research. Why should you, the Catholic
> Church or anyone else tell me what to do with my life? No doctor is forced to
> help a person to commit suicide any more than any doctor is forced to perform
> an abortion. Stop trying to force your will on other people.
> HELEN WILLIS {assisted suicide}
> ...I have to say I wish that all the money being spent on arguing the assisted suicide
> issue was instead spent on universal hospice care (Oh God, socialized medicine)
> with the use of whatever pain and comfort medicine necessary including heroin (the
> preferred pain agent in terminal patients in Europe) and THC, (which would be
> more sensible given in some form other than a non dosage regulated burning
> leaf). In England, where this is available there is not nearly as much a
> demand for the right to suicide. I am frightened about the implications of
> assisted suicide without socialized medicine and universally good hospice
> care, which is where we are heading here in the US.
> Helen Willis
> hhiwater@bright.net
CLAIRE
I am convinced that if assisted suicide / euthanasia become fully legal,
eventually, people will be coerced into dying, one way or another.
Managed-care plans will pay for euthanasia but not for treatments that
will make the patient better, physically or mentally. Those patients
being coerced into dying will have the views of the pro-euthanasia side
forced upon them. Helen makes a good point about there being less of a
demand for assisted suicide where there is good hospice care.
I will repeat what I said before: The right to life is more fundamental,
and requires more protection, than the "right to die". The undesirables
in Hitler's Germany certainly had a "right to die", but they were not
allowed their right to live. Hitler was born Catholic, but he certainly
did not follow Catholic teachings when it came to abortion and
euthanasia. He also ended up committing suicide, which is against
Catholic teaching. (I have addressed the issue of Hitler's Catholicism
in a separate posting).
This is a link to a US News and World Report article about euthanasia
and physician-assisted suicide in the Netherlands. There are tight
controls, and Dutch patients are very close to their physicians, and
there is universal health coverage. Yet there are many patients who are
euthanized without their consent. Depressed patients with treatable
physical conditions are given the means to commit suicide. If
physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia became commonplace in the US,
the problems would be greatly magnified.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/13HOLL.HTM
People may not be overtly "forced" to commit suicide, but they can feel
subtle pressures, especially if they are depressed. It is my firm belief
that legalization (and the resultant promotion of) physician-assisted
suicide / euthanasia will push many more depressed people over the edge.
Suicidal feelings often pass, but if a person feels encouraged to act on
them and completes the suicide, there is no going back. I highly
recommend _The Enigma of Suicide_ by George Howe Colt (published 1991).
One of the main lessons of that book was that suicidal feelings are
often temporary, and there is much that can be done to prevent suicide
and return the person to mental (and physical) health. However, when a
person is in a vulnerable state, he or she can very easily be pushed
into the grave.
Here is a link that answers frequently asked questions about euthanasia
and assisted suicide:
http://www.iaetf.org/answers.htm
>> CLAIRE {Asst .....population issues (again)}
>> Now for the population explosion: Throwing abortion or contraceptive
>> services at people is not going to reduce the birth rate unless the
>> underlying incentives to have many children are removed.
> IAN
> Now where did you get this idea from? Why would a person use a contraceptive or
> have an abortion if there were incentives to have many children?
>> CLAIRE {same posting}
>> First and
>> foremost, the death rate of children under 5 must be reduced. Parents
>> who see that their children are likely to die early will have a lot of
>> children just to ensure that at least a few survive.
> IAN
> I would like to know where you got this idea from also. There are men in
> some parts of the world who believe the more children you have, the more of a
> man you are. What, by the way is the death rate for children under five? Where?
> I would be willing to bet the biggest reason for a high birth rate is the Pope
> and other religious and political leaders like him. If people have children
> because the children they have are not likely to live, why in the Hell would
> they have an abortion or use a contraceptive. Who's been brainwashing you
> Claire?
CLAIRE
This link from the US Census Bureau (International Statistics) has
information on infant mortality and other measures, for each country, by
year:
http://www.census.gov/ftp/pub/ipc/www/idbprint.html
By the way, I really should have added that improving the status and
educational level of women in developing countries is KEY to helping to
reduce both the death rate of children under five (and the birth rates
as well). Raising the age of marriage also is very important.
Better-educated women are more likely to marry later, have fewer
children when they do marry, and take better care of those children so
they are more likely to survive. Throwing contraceptives and abortion
services at uneducated women who marry at 13 isn't going to help,
especially if their children are likely to die.
You cannot tell me that the Catholic Church has not done anything to
help poor women in developing countries!
This link has information on infant mortality, age structure of the
population, literacy rates by gender, and other descriptive measures, by
country:
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/nsolo/factbook/peo.htm
This one has death rates for children under 5, per 1000. Countries with
high death rates for children under 5 also have high fertility rates.
gopher://gopher.undp.org:70/00/ungophers/popin/wdtrends/child
I don't yet have a table or graph which correlates death rates for
children under 5 with fertility rates, but I can try to find one for
you. By the way, I was brainwashed about this in my two epidemiology
classes and in some of my statistics classes while I was studying for my
master's degree in biostatistics at the University of Rochester. I can
also try to find information in my notes and books for some of these
classes, which I took ten years ago (some of my books and notes have
been lost, so I can't make promises about this).
>> CLAIRE {[another part of] Assisted Suicide, Population Issues - repeated again}
>> For the cost of one
>> abortion, you could vaccinate hundreds of children against easily
>> preventable diseases, thus reducing their death rate. Leaving aside
>> "morality", abortion is simply not a viable method of birth control in
>> developing countries. Another problem is that children are viewed as
>> "assets" who can work when they are still very young and earn money for
>> their families. If children are banned from working and are instead
>> required to attend school, they will no longer be viewed as financial
>> assets, and this will reduce the incentive for parents to have many
>> children.
> IAN
> Well, I agree with most of what you say here at least. Yes, the price of one
> abortion could pay for many vaccinations OR contraceptives but it won't pay much
> in the way of food, clothing, shelter, medical care and education. Why don't
> you write to Pope John-Paul and tell him that when he visits these third world
> countries he should speak out against child labor instead of abortion and
> contraception. If he did I might be able to say something nice about him.
CLAIRE
Pope John Paul has spoken out on issues other than Church doctrine,
abortion and contraception. He has frequently condemned the exploitation
of workers and has stated that all people have a right to make a decent
living. But I could write to him about child labor and suggest that he
EMPHASIZE it in a speech. I am glad that you suggested this.
Here are links to some of his speeches:
On Social Concerns (December 30, 1988)
http://atlanta.american.edu/catholic/church/papal/jp.ii/jp2solli.txt
On the Ecological Crisis (January 1, 1990)
http://atlanta.american.edu/catholic/church/papal/jp.ii/ecology.crisis
Visit of Pope John Paul II to the United Nations and the United States
Opening Address to the UN (October 4, 1995)
http://www.nj.com/popepage/untext.html
Catholic Relief Services Message, October 8, 1995
http://christusrex.org/www1/pope/CRS.html
~Claire O'Connor