Answer the Arguments, Matt
Farrell Till jftill@midwest.net
Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:41:32 -0600 (CST) (00878424092, 199711011641.KAA16922@cdale3.midwest.net)
At 10:55 AM 11/1/97 -0000, Matt Bell wrote:
>MIKE
>I sent him your rebuttal and asked him to respond. Let's see if he
>takes the bait. I guess we are going to have to bring someone else in
>here to argue this point, since Matt has declared that he will no longer
>post anything on this issue. It is amazing to me that Matt won't even
>admit that perhaps he spoke prematurely in claiming that God's plan of
>salvation was "crystal clear".
>
>MATT
>Your above statement is erroneous. I stated that I would post nothing else
>with regard to Acts 10/11, as it was clear that Till was only interested in
>playing semantics rather than confronting the plain reading of the passage
>that Cornelius and his household were baptised (with water) after they had
>believed and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit i,e. after they had
>been saved.
TILL
Your last statement is what you need to prove, Matt. Where does the text
state that the household of Cornelius was baptized AFTER they had been
saved? Here are the textual facts:
1. Peter was called from Joppa to speak words to Cornelius and his
household by which they would be saved (Acts 11:14).
2. The Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household as Peter BEGAN to
speak; hence, they were baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE Peter had spoken
the words by which they could be saved.
3. Therefore, the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not an indication that
Cornelius and his household had already been saved.
When you add to this all of the other information I have posted on this
subject, the inevitable conclusion is that the NT teaches that baptism in
water is a commandment that one must obey in order to be saved. I don't
recall that you have even attempted to respond to the following information
that I have posted on this subject:
1. He that believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16).
2. Saul of Tarsus asked Jesus what he should do, and Jesus told him to go
into the city where it would be told him what he MUST do (Acts 22:10; 9:6).
The only thing that Saul was told to do after he was in the city was to
arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY HIS SINS (Acts 22:16).
3. Paul said that if any man was IN Christ, he was a new creature (2 Cor.
5:17), but the NT states that one is baptized INTO Christ (Gal. 3:27).
4. Paul taught that one is baptized INTO the death of Christ and raised to
walk in newness of life.
These are all in addition to what I have posted on Acts 2:38, Acts 8:11-16,
and 1 Peter 3:21, which you did at least mention in your postings, but you
have not answered my responses to them. I am eager to present other
arguments on baptism, but I see no need to until you respond to what I have
already posted.
MATT
I am far from finished with the issue and as with all other
>threads I engage in will see it through to its conclusion. Please read what
>I say before posting what you 'think' I have declared.
>
TILL
You may say that you are finished with Acts 10 and 11 (the conversion of
Cornelius and his household), but I am not finished with it. Until you
answer the argument restated above, which I have posted several times, I am
going to stick to this and refuse to go on to other aspects of the subject.
After all, Matt, this is supposed to be a debate, and a debater has a
responsibility to answer his opponent's arguments. If you won't answer
mine, why should I answer yours?
MATT
>I will not admit that which is not true. No-one going to a Christian seeking
>salvation would be taken through the intricacies of what effects salvation,
>rather they would be told to repent from their sins, believe on the Lord
>Jesus Christ and then be baptised. What we are discussing is the theology of
>soteriology, not the simplicity involved in leading someone to salvation.
TILL
Well, you have it backwards. One should believe first and then repent.
What would be one's motivation to repent if he didn't yet believe? I also
have to question your use of "Christian." How could one be a "Christian
seeking salvation"? Doesn't one seek salvation first and then become a
Christian? Anyway, if you told a person seeking salvation to believe,
repent, and be baptized, you would be telling him/her the same thing that
the NT teaches, wouldn't you?
I will present to you the same challenge I sent to Esposito. Can you find a
NT passage mentioning both baptism and salvation in which salvation precedes
baptism? If so, please post it. From my understanding of the NT, whenever
baptism and salvation were mentioned together, baptism ALWAYS preceded
salvation. There must have been a reason for this.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@midwest.net