Thank you,
Tony Woodcock.
On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Michael Fisher wrote:
> Tony opined:
> Hello. Have you read the Bible before? Of the great books you
> read, why don't you have the Bible? Do you realize how authentic it is?
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> MWF
> =09Here's some more previously written stuff, just for Tony (or JEFF [dam=
mit, I=20
> just can't seem to type straight today])
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> Hmm. Perhaps. But there is a more interesting question to be asked=
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> about the scenario.
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> A & E had a command.
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> One command.
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> Only one rule they could break.
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> Until they broke it, they had been unselfconsciously nude.=20
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> Obviously there had been no rule about clothing in the garden.
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> In modern times, where a low technology tribal society had been=
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> similarly nude prior to contact with fully clothed westerners, it is a=20
> simple fact that the _donning_ of clothing will cause embarassment to th=
e=20
> members of the tribal society.
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> Now, A & E after eating of the tree supposidly gainged a moral=20
> conscience. Therefore, after eating the fruit they realized they had brok=
en=20
> a rule and that that is a BAD THING.
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> So when the almighty shows up, about what do they show=20
> consternation? Their abject disobedience?
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> Nope.
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> Rather they're worried about their lack of sartorial resplendence=
=2E
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> Kinda odd. I mean when *my* kids do something wrong, it is that=
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> thing done wrong which inspires consternation. They certainly don't worry=
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> about getting in trouble for *following* the rules, nor for acts for whic=
h=20
> there are no rules in our house, like which hand you hold the apple in=20
> while you eat it.
> Yet this is just what A & E are depicted as doing.
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> There's another gaping problem, but everyone dodges that bullet, =
so=20
> I'll save it for now and see if anyone can come up with a pricipled=20
> explanation for the oddly displaced guilt of A & E.
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> Some more thoughts:
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> If God is *omniscient*. If nothing is unknown to God.
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> If God's knowledge is complete and perfect.
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> Then why would he need to perform any "tests"?
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> You only need to "test" when you don't *know* whats going to happ=
en.=20
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> Therefore, if God needed to "test" Adam, that means that there=20
> was/is something which God COULD NOT OR CANNOT KNOW.
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> Which means God is not omniscient. If God is not omniscient, then=
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> somewhere in all infinity and eternity there is that which will destroy=
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> God. Which means God cannot keep, even if he makes, infintie promises suc=
h=20
> as eternal life.
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> It might be, ah, fruitful to ponder that.
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
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> Here=92s a psychological study of ole=92 Adam & Eve, a dialog from a newg=
roup exchange:
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> ->As for the parent/child analogy, it was probably not the best, as Adam=
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> ->and Eve were not children in the sense of being immature and incapable =
of
> ->forming rational thought, or obeying/disobeying.=20
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> Uh, they weren't? If they had no knowledge of good or evil, had=
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> never been punished, admonished, restricted, instructed, reprimanded,=20
> disciplined. Never had to make a dead line, look for food, obey=20
> instructions to avoid any danger because there was none. In short, if in=
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> there entire existence there had never been a command to obey, or a reaso=
n=20
> to have a command to obey, just now were they supposed to learn??=20
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> -> In a child this is a
> ->developmental process as the child grows towards adulthood. In the cas=
e=20
> ->of Adam and Eve, they were clearly "developed" -- though they may have=
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> ->lacked "experience" (but that's a whole other matter).
> ->
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> See above.
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> ->So, the child is not responsible for crying in the cinema, and the pare=
nt
> ->should know better. However, it's hardly the same as disobeying the
> ->Creator of the Universe is it? :-)
> ->
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> The parent provides rewards and "disincentives" to the child so t=
hat=20
> (whether this is what the parent is thinking at all times or not) the chi=
ld=20
> will learn and internalize the proper behaviours for her culture. And=20
> people living in social groups invariably have some authority figures who=
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> are to be obeyed. Children are rewarded for obeying, and given some kind =
of=20
> negative reinforcement (more or less consistently) for disobeying.
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> As above, at what point over which subjects for what reasons by w=
ho=20
> did Adam and Eve recieve any such training?
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> ->Yes, God could have stopped all this evil. He could have destroyed all
> ->life and started again. And again. And again. Ad infinitum. He could
> ->have also "lobotimised" His creation, and forced their/it's compliance,=
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> ->but He didn't. Probably that's what we'd have done.
> ->
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> Given God's supposed power and concern, if I were doing it, I'd j=
ust=20
> do it the right damn way the first damn time. And if I omnsciently knew=
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> it'd never work, I'd start a different project.
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> ->What He did do shows the true character of God.=20
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> Hmm. Sure you want to say that?
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> -> At the right time, He sent
> ->His Son, Jesus Christ, to die in our place, so that the integrity of=20
> ->God's holiness could be upheld, but the desire of God's love to be merc=
iful to=20
> ->us could be met.
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> Christ we are told IS God. Part of the Triuity. As such he is=20
> immortal, omnipotent, and omnsient.
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> How the (Insert prodigious numbers of non-specific verbal=20
> intensifiers) can an #*omnipotent*# _%!immortal being!%_ =20
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> !?!?!?!?_*! >DIE< !*_!?!?!?!
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> -> And in this one act He righted the wrong of the Fall, and
> ->redeemed us.=20
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> How?? By what mechinism? What about a wrong deed of mine has any=
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> kind of ontological being such that another person can take it away from =
me=20
> and "right" it? How does it change me?
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> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> =09I rather like that last question.
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> =09To SIN is to ACT. A sin is SOMETHING YOU __!!**DO**!!__.=20
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> =09Once it=92s done, it is =93history=94, like a fallen rock. It has beco=
ms something=20
> which
> has already happend.=20
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> =09How is it =93undone=94?? How can it be =93borne=94 by any other? =93Ta=
ken away=94 from
> me?
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> =09I await your devastating responses.
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> =09Ciao.
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> --=20
> =09Michael Fisher, ET1/SS USN ret., lawstudent=09
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> =09http://home.aol.com/Mfish6994
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> =09*=09=09*=09=09* =20
> =09
> He that would make his own liberty secure,=20
> must guard even his enemy from oppression;=20
> for if he violates this duty,=20
> he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
> =09=09
> Thomas Paine
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