LENNY
My whole problem is that without the Bible as a standard everyone gets to
make up their own. Whatever "I" think. Whatever "I" feel. Whatever "I"
want. Who can say that certain things are wrong? If we let society
decide then was not Hitler right in killing all those people? Is society
to be the standard? What if society says that all people will be killed
unless they pledge their faith in God? I am looking for an answer here
not an argument? If any of you on the list can help me understand I
would love to have you try!
Paul Robson:
You will never understand because you are making the argumentative
error of assuming one of only two extremes. Namely :
(1) all your morality comes from God or,
(2) you have no morality
This makes the fundamental error that "morality" as you call it cannot
be built up over time, passed down through the generations and horizontally
through societical standards. This has the useful extra that it can be
refined and improved as time goes on, so that things that people considered
horribly wrong (e.g. pre-marital sex) are no longer considered so. If
you have a "fixed" morality, this usually leads to bigotry (e.g. against
homosexuals) and stupidity, because the "morals" relate to a different
time and age and, more importantly, a different level of education.
It is often the people who don't have to deal with the "problems" (caused
by others , I hasten to say) of being black, handicapped, homosexual or
whatever who like to make these nice simplistic statements and attempt
to coerce other people into believing them - e.g. by bombing abortion
clinics or saying things like "AIDS is a curse from God".
Michael Hughes said he had a handicapped daughter. If he had been
of an earlier age (assuming she survived, which would be much less
likely) no doubt the Church would have said it was a curse from God,
or punishment for Sins, or some other such tripe. Why ? Because they
were bloody ignorant. People who say things like "AIDS is a curse from
God " or bomb abortion clinics are likewise bloody ignorant. It is simple
predigested thinking. It is the same thought process that produces
"all blacks are stupid".
There is an enormous extension here that "what I believe, what I think" =>
"what I want" . What you are implying here is actually athiesm=>selfishness.
I don't think any of the non-theists (or in fact anyone) would say that
they should always do what they want.
It is absolutely fatuous to say that because you can't write down a
set of "rules" for every given situation (something your Bible quite clearly
is NOT) then you will just have whatever morality you want. People
learn morals from parents/friends/siblings/society and even Priests,
and these are expanded upon, refined and hopefully improved (but not
always) as time goes on. You do not need to be able to quantify
something in order to make a judgement about it. You and all other
religious groups make a judgement about what your Bible says and
work from that. Fine. That doesn't make it true, however, because it
is just the opinion of a small group. And most of the Xian groups argue
with each other about this doctrinaire drivel like there is no tomorrow.
Christians far too often make the mistake of assuming they are right
about absolutely-bloody everything, and any admission that they are
"wrong" invalidates the whole of the rest of their doctrines. This says
a lot about their own thought processes. Do you ever wonder what
difference it makes if their are actual factual & logical errors in the Bible
?
Supposing 'Creationsism' is just hogwash. Why does this invalidate
everything else about Christianity ? You can see this on this list. One
sign of maturity is to be able to put your hands up and say "yes,
that's wrong".
Or if you want it slightly more rationally, they group together assertions
as a package that are in no way logically connected.
I don't believe your society is so bloody brilliant that you haven't got
anything better to do than prat about arguing about whether or not
to have music. It is so childish it is pathetic. Does God really care ?
Of course not. Some fool derived it from some passage of dubious
origin in the Bible ages ago and the CoC is so bloody terrified that
the whole thing will fall apart if it dares to suggest it's a stupid rule
that
it fights it to the death.
Paul Robson (autismuk@aol.com)