CARR
This is mainly because you have never cited any use of it by anybody.
You have still failed to tell me what Jesus's status was, according to
Paul's view, *before* God highly exalted him and why this was as a
result of the crucifixion and not the resurrection.
Walter
The distinction between the humanity and deity of Christ was
foundational to early christian doctrine.
CARR
And also to gnostic Christianity.
Walter
With the rise of the gnostics and other non-orthodox groups, trinitarian
and incarnational issues were forced to the surface to be addressed. A
book that will be very helpful is Louis Berkhof's "The History of
Christian Doctrines."
Secondly, the early church fathers did quote the Pauline Epistles
extensively. For example Irenaeus quotes Paul 499 times, Clement of
Alex. 1127 times, Origen 7778 times, Tertullian 2,609 times, Hippolytus
387 times, and Eusebius 1592 times.
CARR
All of these are *later* than the early Church fathers , Valentinus,
Ptolemy and Marcion who quoted Paul extensively.
I cited Justin, Hegesippus, Athanagoras, Polycarp, Ignatius as early,
orthodox church fathers who never used Paul much and you respond by
giving people of 1 or 2 centuries later, when gnosticism had been
largely beaten out of the church.
Walter
Justin does quote Paul 43 times, which is substantially less than the
other fathers, however, when you look at how much Justin quoted from the
other texts, Paul gets a large portion. Justin quotes Acts 10 times,
the general epistles 6 times, Revelation 3 times, and the Gospels 268
times. Therefore, you see that Justin puts a lot of emphasis on the
writings of the "apostles."
CARR
I wouldn't mind seeing a few of these quotes of Paul by Justin.
Walter
Either way, Justin was in no way a gnostic.
CARR
I never said he was! I said that Justin, being orthodox, did not use
Paul much.
Walter
As for your next point that many gnostics writers quoted Paul, that
proves little. For example, today many New Agers quote Jesus in defense
of reincarnation and other of their beliefs, but that in no way
demonstrates that Jesus held to those beliefs.
CARR
A non-sequitor. Did Paul hold those beliefs?
Walter
Historically, christianity challenged gnosticism head on...there was no
syncretism involved.
CARR
Gnosticism was a *type* of Christianity. I hope you are not going to say
that Valentinus, Marcion etc. did not believe in God and Christ.
Walter
Finally, the passage in I Cor. 15 clearly refers to Jesus. You continue
to question this, though you have given no indication who Paul is
speaking about in that passage.
CARR
Paul is speaking about Christ.
Walter
I pointed out that Paul ends that section on the resurrection
with the the 'Lord Jesus Christ.' Who else could he be speaking about
Steve?
CARR
That particular section of 1 Cor. 15 is subject to considerable textual
tampering in the manuscripts. People regularly altered passages to say
'The Lord Jesus Christ', precisely to get around the problem that Jesus
and Christ were separated in some Christian views, and possibly in
Paul's.
Walter
Until I hear some reason for your objection to the obvious, I will
accept the overwhelming opinion of scholars that this person in I Cor.
15 is speaking of Jesus.
Also, don't forget the original point of this discussion. This passage
was an early creed (vs. 3-8) which dated to within five years of the
crucifixion. This is strong early testimony to the fact of Jesus and
his death, burial, and resurrection.
CARR
As it makes no mention of the Gospel stories which have women and tombs
and earthquakes and a totally different set of resurrection appearances,
this is hardly a problem for me.
BTW, why does Acts 26:19 insist that Paul saw only a vision?