From: Dowel
To: Dardedar
*** Response to your Message Board Posting ***
Dowel< I read your posting about the contradictions you find in the
Bible. I must say that you seem to have a lot of interest in this subject
to have studied so much to have found such areas of concern.
Dar< I wouldn't say that I am all that concerned about Bible
contradictions. I can see how you would be though. There seems to
be a minority of Christian inerrantists who are still concerned about
them. Most Christians have learned to live with them.
Dowel< While I cannot claim any special knowledge or ability in how
to address many of the errors you (and others in this forum) believe
you have found, I cannot help but wonder what it is that you're trying
to do.
Dar< Teach people about the many errors, atrocities, absurdities in
the bible. We give of our time freely in this teaching process.
Certainly a noble endeavor, eh?
Dowel< Do these seeming contradictions invalidate the rest of the
document?
Dar< I think these contradictions invalidate the doctrine of inerrancy.
There are some who think that if the bible can't get it's story straight
on the things that we can check then can hardly be trusted on matters
that are beyond possible observation. I do not think the bible must be
either all true or all false although some fundamentalist Christians say
this. I think it contains truth along with the lies. I do not consider this
a good sign of it being inspired from an omniscient omnipotent being.
Dowel< If so, then what is the sense of working so hard to disprove
what is so obviously false?
Dar< Millions of mind numbed fundamentalist Christians still remain
unaware that the bible "is so obviously false." Were just helping to get
the information out for those how still haven't learned. Progress is
being made. Education helps. Consider the following:
"Changes in the educational levels of the general population in recent
years appear to account for much of the variance in biblical beliefs
over time. The current proportion of biblical literalists is 32%, only
half of what it was in 1963, when 65% of Americans said they
believed in the absolute truth of all words in the Bible and that it
represented the actual word of God. Belief in inerrancy is most likely
to be found among people who did not complete high school (58%),
and least likely among college graduates (29%)."
--From One Nation Under God, (1993) Barry A. Kosmin & Seymour
P. Lachman. pg. 268. (A survey of 113,000 Americans).
Dowel< While reading these postings I kept thinking that what I was
hearing was excuses.
Dar< I agree. I too would characterize many of the defenses that
inerrantist come up with on these boards as excuses. Some call it
apologetics but more often the description "excuses" is more
appropriate.
Dowel< Simply walk away from it with the satisfaction of knowing
that you have done what no man has ever been able to do before in
the history of mankind.
Dar< Ahh, come again? Have you been living in a cave? Now I see
why you would say: "I cannot claim any special knowledge or ability
in how to address many of the errors you (and others in this forum)
believe you have found..."
Yet you have no trouble with just tossing this whopper up into the
air. Dear Dowel. Start 200 years ago with the "Age Of Reason" by
Thomas Paine, work yourself though some 19th century Ingersoll and
then graduate onto any non-fundamentalist in-depth bible commentary
written in this century for multitudes of examples of the bible's short
comings.
Dowel< Every evidence of contradiction you can find has been
"discovered" before, and argued before, and fought over before by
minds much greater than ours.
Dar< Perhaps. But your side lost. And is losing. The bible is errant
and most Christian now acknowledge this. Get over it.
As one Christian bishop put it:
"...all human claims to possess objectivity, certainty, or infallibility
are revealed as nothing but the weak and pitiable pleas of frantically
insecure people who seek to live in a illusion because reality has
proved to be too difficult. Papal infallibility and biblical inerrancy are
the two ecclesiastical versions of this human idolatry. Both papal
infallibility and biblical inerrancy require widespread and unchallenged
ignorance to sustain their claims to power. Both are doomed as viable
alternatives for the long-range future of anyone." (pg. 99)
-From the Episcopal (Anglican) Bishop of Newark, New Jersey,
John Shelby Spong. Resurrection: Myth or Reality?,
HarperSanFrancisco, (1994)
Dowel< No one has been able to do that which you apparently are
seeking to do.
Dar< You are very mistaken. I have given you a reading assignment
which should alleviate your problem, now go to it. You might start
with the good bishops (John Spong) "Rescuing The Bible From
Fundamentalism" if you would like a more diluted watered down
Christian version.
Dowel< If it were so, the Bible would have been discredited many
centuries ago...
Dar< It was. You were sleeping. Start with a library card.
Dowel< ...and the book wouldn't even be published today.
Dar< Nonsense. An example. The Jehovah Witness organization has
be shown to be discredited ever since their inception over a hundred
years ago. I can give you many clear prophecies that they have made.
None, NOT ONE of them have come to pass. All have failed. Has this
hurt their membership? Not at all. They enjoy a steady growth (over 5
million evangelize monthly and over 10 million associate with the
group) and through religion switching still manage to convert many of
yours.
Mormons and thousands of other cults are doing great as well.
This planet has never lacked multitudes of the gullible, and faithful.
I suspect the bible will always be published although someday it will
be, and largely has become, understood as the mixture of poetry,
mythology, truth, deception, B.S. and exaggeration that it is.
Dowel< Great minds have searched and searched for the errors of
which you speak, yet time and time again those same men have, in the
final analysis, come to admit that in the central focus of the entire
Bible, Jesus Christ, there is no inconsistency.
Dar< I'm sure it gives you great comfort to think this. Fear of death
can allow people to believe all sorts of absurdities. You name none of
these "great men." No matter, multitudes of great minds do not
acknowledge the existence of a god at all. Especially the silly
Christian one. With good reason. This of course proves nothing.
I do not accept your assertion that the late JC was in anyway a
focus of the largest portion of the Christian bible, the Hebrew
scriptures. The group which concocted this part of the book, upon
which the Christians sewed their pretended revelations, never
recognized your JC. With good reason
Dowel< No man can explain to another with total perfection that
which is unfathomable.
Dar< No, but an all powerful god could. She at least should be able to
do a better job than this morass of confusion, superstition, lies and
contradiction which this book called the bible consists of.
Dowel< The God who I worship is beyond my comprehension.
Dar< I certainly believe you. Seems they always are. I just think it is
silly to worship what you do not know which is what all god
grovellers have always done. They put what they are ignorant of upon
a pedestal and worship it. It took a rather large mantel to hold all the
ignorance that was being worshipped in bible times.
Dowel< The Bible is simply that which he has given us to enable us to
know a little bit about him, his character, and most importantly, that
which it takes to know him personally.
Dar< Then what little the bible does tell us about this character is
enough to disqualify him from being worthy of worship. Call me
weird but I have a problem with gods who ask for humans to be
sacrificed to them.
Dowel< The Bible is not the comprehensive work on God.
Dar< I agree. It is the comprehensive work of primitive and largely
barbaric men.
Dowel< It's just a glimpse, and even that is very hard to understand.
Dar< Unicorn anatomy is also very hard to understand. No doubt
Klingon grammar requires diligent study as well.
Dowel< That's where faith comes in.
Dar< Large doses of it too. The more the better. I lost faith in faith
sometime ago. Faith can be, and usually is, used to verify any and all
beliefs regardless of their veracity. Thus it is useless in determining
the truth of a matter. You must believe without evidence, because you
have no evidence, you must rely upon faith and it is your churches
stock in trade. How telling.
Dowel< I wonder if in your search (if you're really serious about it)
you should change your focus and look at what the Bible is all
about... the point of the whole thing... Jesus.
Dar< Jesus didn't write anything and I find this book which pretends
to interpret his supposed message to be inconsistent, confused, absurd
and otherwise generally a fraud.
Tell me why I should believe the bible. Be specific.
Dowel< The Old Testament looked forward to his coming,
Dar< Prove it.
Dowel< the New speaks of his coming... the fulfillment of all that had
gone before.
Dar< They writers of the old didn't, and don't, see it that way.
Dowel< What does it say about him?
Dar< Various conflicting things.
Dowel< What was his purpose?
Dar< Many Christian sects differ on this. Ask a different Christian, get
a different answer.
Dowel< What did he do?
Dar< This cannot be established/substantiated. He was so impressive
that no one contemporary with him (outside the dubious and
anonymous gospels) bothered to even mention him.
Dowel< Did any of what he did have meaning?
Dar< Not for me. I think the world would have been better off if he
never existed. And/or if he did not exist, which is possible, that those
myth-making gospelers didn't make up those tall tales in the first
place.
Dowel< Were there inconsistencies in his life? His words? His
deeds?
Dar< Certainly.
Dowel< Look beyond the peripheral issues and go for the heart.
Dar< Not when it is at the expense of the brain.
Dowel< If you disprove Christ, you kill off the Bible. Go for it.
Dar< The burden lies upon you to prove your Christ. He certainly has
acted exactly like a dead person for the last 2000 or so years.
With good reason.
----------------------
"It is scandalous that any modern, intelligent, well-educated person
should believe in Christianity." --Delos B. McKown, Ph.D., U.S.
professor, philosopher, author, former clergyman.
----------------------
Here are some bible problems someone posted in the Christian section of
AOL. You might start with these. When your done I have lots more.
Lots.
Better too.
-----------------------
A nice little list of Bible problems:
continued next post...
(This was suppose to go a couple of days ago. AOL screwed up. The "nice
little list of Bible problems has already been posted.
Here is the correct address to send to for the additional Bible problems
from Don Morgan:
Yours for the asking, a collection of E-mail packets
on the Bible and biblical problems including...
Introduction
Abbreviations
Absurdities
Atrocities
Fatal Flaws
Inconsistencies
Questionable Precepts
Vulgarities
To obtain---
Send e-mail request to: donmorgan@nas.com
Put the following in the SUBJECT line: send Bible files
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