On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Farrell Till wrote:
> WOODCOCK
> Hello, I will correct you now. For some reason you do not believe
> this scripture was and is now being fufilled, well it has and is...
>
> TILL
> Correction can work both ways, Tony, and I think you're going to see that
> you're the one who gets his nose rubbed in it.
>
> WOODCOCK
> Sam. 7:16, "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever;
> your throne shall be established forever."
>
> <unneeded dictionary definitions of "endure" snipped>
>
> David's Kingdom still is....
>
> Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father(out of David's
> decendants), His Kingdom has been established and has endured and will
> continue enduring. David's Kingdom has endured and now Jesus Christ sits
> on the throne(He is God).
>
> TILL
> Well, I see that Tony has taken the bait. I had hoped that Jerry or Michael
> would, because they have the ability and willingness to try to debate. Tony
> obviously doesn't. Anyway, I'll take what I can get. First, let's look at
> the entire passage again:
>
> In 2 Samuel 7:12-16, the prophet Nathan spoke to David a prophecy of an
> everlasting kingdom that would secure the throne of David forever: "When
> your days are fulfilled and you sleep with your fathers, I will set up your
> seed after you that shall proceed out of your loins, and I will establish
> his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the
> throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son.
> If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the
> stripes of the children of men, but my lovingkindness will not depart from
> him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before you. And your house and
> your kingdom will be made sure FOREVER before you; your throne will be
> established FOREVER."
>
> Tony, as almost all inerrantist do, is trying to argue that this "seed of
> David" who sits on David's throne was Christ, but look at the problems this
> interpretation encounters: (1) Verse 14 refers to chastisement that Yahweh
> would administer to this son if he committed iniquity. Is Tony going to
> argue that Jesus committed iniquity, when the NT claims that he was without
> sin or guile? (2) The parallel text in 1 Chronicles 22:9 specifically
> names Solomon as the son that Yahweh would put on David's throne and then
> secure it forever. Here is the parallel text:
>
> 1 Chronicles 22:9, "But the word of Yahweh came to me [David], saying, You
> have shed blood abundantly, and have made great wars; you shall not build a
> house unto my name, because you have shed much blood upon the earth in my
> sight. Behold, a SON shall be born to you, who shall be a man of rest, and
> I will give HIM rest from all his enemies round about; for his name shall be
> SOLOMON, and I will give peace and quietness to Israel in his days. He
> shall build a house for my name, and he shall be my son, and I will be his
> father; AND I WILL ESTABLISH THE THRONE OF HIS KINGDOM OVER ISRAEL FOR EVER."
>
> Solomon was the one who built Yahweh's house [the temple], and in the
> language that David uses, we hear the echo of what was said in 2 Samuel 7,
> so clearly Solomon was the "seed" or "son" that Yahweh would sit on David's
> throne and then secure it FOREVER over ISRAEL. This was clearly a passage
> written by some ethnocentric writer who thought that the Jews were so
> special to Yahweh that he would establish their kingdom FOREVER. But it
> didn't happen.
>
> There are other passages that speak about this EVERLASTING throne of David,
> and they make it very clear that the writers thought that this would be an
> everlasting literal kingdom of Israel. One such text is Jeremiah 33:14-18,
> "Behold the days come, says Yahweh that I will perform that good word which
> I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and concerning the house of
> Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause a Branch of
> righteousness to grow up unto David, and he [the branch of righteousness]
> shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those days shall
> Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely, and this is the name
> whereby she shall be called: Yahweh our righeousness. For thus says Yahweh,
> DAVID SHALL NEVER WANT A MAN TO SIT UPON THE THRONE OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL."
>
> Let's notice that the language of this text speaks of Judah being saved and
> Jerusalem dwelling safely, so this is obviously a prediction of a literal
> kingdom of Judah that would be established, and David would NEVER want a man
> to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel. Ah, yes, desperate
> inerrantists like Tony say, but this was to be a figurative kingdom and a
> figurative throne, and Jesus is sitting on that throne right now, and so the
> prophecy was fulfilled. Why, I can quote NT scriptures to prove that Jesus
> is sitting on the throne of David.
>
> Well, I will discuss those NT scriptures later and show how that they were
> distortions of what OT scriptures meant. But first, let's notice some
> problems that even this "figurative" interpretation poses. The promise was
> that David would NEVER want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of
> Israel, but Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 587 B. C., and Zedekiah
> was the last of the Judean kings to sit on David's throne. So even if six
> centuries later, Jesus figuratively fulfilled this passage, how do
> inerrantists explain away the 600-year vacancy on the throne? The promise
> was that David would NEVER want a man sitting on the throne.
>
> Another problem is posed by verse 18 in the passage from Jeremiah. I
> stopped quoting at verse 17, where the promise was that David would NEVER
> want a man sitting on the throne of Israel, but verse 18 says: "Neither
> shall the priests the levites want a man before me to offer burnt-offerings
> and to burn meal-offerings and to do sacrifice continually." Clearly this
> was a promise that the kingdom of Israel and its levitical system of
> burn-offerings and meal-offerings would last forever. Is Tony going to
> contend that this levitical system still exists? He had better get in touch
> with the Holy Spirit and get some help on this issue.
>
> If that's not enough for Tony to chew on for a while, he might want to
> consider Psalm 132:11, "Yahweh has sworn in truth to David; He will not turn
> from it. 'I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.'" This has
> to be a reference to the promise made in 2 Samuel 7, and I can already hear
> Tony say, "Why, yes, God made this promise, and he fulfilled it when he put
> Christ, who was a descendant of David, on the throne in a figurative sense."
>
> Okay, let's look now at the very NEXT verse: "If your SONS will keep My
> covenant and My testimony which I shall teach them, THEIR sons shall sit
> upon your throne FOREVERMORE." The apostle Paul made an argument in
> Galatians 3:14 on the fact that the word "seed" from a passage he was
> referring to in the OT was singular and not plural, so now I am going to do
> the reverse. I want Tony to notice that the word "sons" in the verse above
> was PLURAL, not singular. The promise of Yahweh (according to the
> "inspired" writer) was that he would secure David's throne FOREVERMORE for
> his SONS (plural). If the SONS of David did not turn from Yahweh's
> covenant, then THEIR sons would sit on David's throne FOREVERMORE. Tony
> cannot claim that a figurative fulfillment in Christ (just one son of David)
> would satisfy the promise in this passage that the SONS of David would sit
> on his throne FOREVERMORE.
>
> Clearly, the OT writers thought that Yahweh would be their god forever and
> would secure their kingdom forever. The writers clearly had in mind a
> literal, earthly kingdom of Israel that would last forever, and the texts I
> have analyzed above show this. Tony has his work cut out for him.
>
> I will look at his NT passages in another posting, but it is 2:00 A. D., and
> I need to stop for the night.
>
>
> Farrell Till
> Skepticism, Inc.
> jftill@midwest.net
>
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