1) If Jesus rose from the dead, it would have to happen because a
sufficient cause brought it about. (Cause and effect. If an effect can
be shown to have happened, it would have to have a cause.)
MWF
"A" sufficient cause? Far too loose a use of language regarding
something of the bio-chemical and organizational complexity of a single
cell, let alone a multicellular, complex, warm blooded vertebrate.
Particularly one who is supposed to have been dead long enough for all
the individual cells of the body to have individually died.
Even if we allow a loose use of "a cause" to include the complex
coordinated multilevel intervention at the molecular level of every cell
in the dead body that would be required ( and this based only on current
knowledge, things are probably far more complex than that ), it still
betrays an overly simplistic analysis of the problem.
2) The people that Till experienced staying dead did not have a
sufficient cause acting on them to bring about resurrections. If they
had, then they would have risen.
MWF
All but tautological. And it certainly does NOT demonstrate, nor
does Aramis anywhere attempt to, that any such "sufficient cause"
exists. Important lapse that.
3) So, Till applies the conclusion reached by studying one category (
the category of dead people that do not have sufficient causes acting on
them), to an instance (if it did occur) of a different category ( the
category of dead people that do have sufficient causes acting on them).
MWF
Not a problem.
Aramis's problem, which he hasn't confronted, is that the
"sufficient cause", if it is to function as any kind of "proof" for his
religion MUST be, by any merely material measure, "impossible". If the
"sufficient cause" to achieve a resurrection of a long dead body is
something which is within natural possibility, then NEITHER
a.) is any God required to effect a resurrection
NOR
b.) does the fact of a resurrection, if finally proved, then
provide any reason to believe in ANY god.
So Aramis very much needs the "sufficient cause" to equal
"intervention by God himself" something that is "impossible" by any
other means; which equals "a miracle".
But then Hume's objection to about the impossibility of mere
human testimony ever being enough to prove a miracle rears it's
venerable head.
Somehow, it must be the greater miracle for the testimony to be
false than for the purported miracle to be false.
A bar of proof not yet met anywhere.
ARAMIS, from another post, to Jason this time;
I don't believe we have talked before, so I will ask you this now: will
you provide us with an objective, inductive historical criteria and a
baseline using two documents from the same period that you believe to be
reliable documents, and two events from the same period that you believe
to be accurately reported.
MWF
First, the documents and the events:
GALLIC WAR, Julius Caesar; that same war
CIVIL WARS, Appian; the Roman civil wars
The greater problem is trying to decide just what Aramis means
by "an" objective etc., but here are a couple of guide lines;
1.) Physically possible.
2.) Congruent with other information available
That will do for starters.
ARAMIS;
The only guidelines for the criteria I insist on are:
1) The criteria must be able to be met. For instance, demanding an
analytic proof for a synthetic statement is a criterion that is
impossible to meet. This will not do.
MWF
Well, so far so good.
ARAMIS;
2) The conclusions of the criteria cannot conflict with known fact. If
the test shows other historical events to be false, that we already
know to be true, we must reject that test.
MWF
Still in there.
ARAMIS;
3) The criteria must be objective.
MWF
Looking good.
ARAMIS;
4) The criteria must be used in historical research, and shown to be a
reliable way of determining history.
MWF
Well, all of my chosen events, sources, and tests seem to pass.
Your ball now.
Ciao.
-- Michael Fisher, ET1/SS USN ret., law student* * * He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. Thomas Paine
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