Transubstantiation (for Jim Washburn, Richard Lead)
Claire E. O'Connor claireoc@softdisk.com
Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:42:03 -0600 (00882160923, 349460BB.6656@softdisk.com)
To Richard Lead and Jim Washburn (and all who are interested on this
list):
Here are some belated responses to your questions about
transubstantiation and my critical thinking skills:
> CLAIRE (11/25)
> There are several critical thinkers at this site, but there are also
> some who just uncritically accept atheist dogmas and act as cheerleaders
> for the atheist cause.
> WASHBURN (11/25)
> Claire certainly knows critical thinking when she sees it.
> CLAIRE (11/25)
> I do believe in transubstantiation.
> WASHBURN (11/25)
> Q.E.D.
> -Jim Washburn
> RICHARD: (11/25)
> So please identify for us by name the critical thinkers and also identify
> for us by name those "who just uncritically accept atheist dogmas." Also,
> the method(s) by which you determine which people fit into which group
> would be appreciated.
> Please list those "atheist dogmas" the cheerleaders accept. To help you:
> "dogma: n - 1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church. 2. a tenet
> or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church. 3. Prescribed
> doctrine. [L, from Gk]"
> You're not just making this up as you go along are you Claire? Oxymoronic
> terminology only weakens your case.
CLAIRE (12/14)
Richard, if you don't like the word "dogma", then I will use another
word. Would "doctrine" be acceptable to you?
I have already offended enough people on this list. If I label people by
name as being uncritical in their acceptance of atheist dogmas, I will
only inflame them further. Also, I hope that these people might
eventually question their own doctrines and show some open-mindedness
toward Christians (is this blind faith on my part?)
The principal doctrines that some atheists seem to believe are:
(1) Anyone who believes in God (especially a Christian) is a deluded
superstitious ignoramus, who is incapable of rational thinking (in ANY
area, not just the "God-area").
(2) Anything having to do with Christianity (e.g., the Promise Keepers)
MUST BE BAD, simply by virtue of its association with Christianity.
A corollary to both (1) and (2) would be that any historical information
that would appear to make Christianity "look good" (such as evidence
that the historical Jesus really existed, or that Christianity was
actually much better for women than paganism was) must be (a) fabricated
by some conspiracy (b) otherwise untrue, even if not intentionally
fabricated.
>
>RICHARD (11/25):
>> But let me assure you of one thing Claire - if ever I abandon my atheism
>> rest assured I will become a catholic. I have always wanted to eat jesus.
>>
>> Um - you DO believe in the literal transubstantiation, don't you? Claire,
>> how long does it take Him to travel from mouth to south? Is there a catholic
>> scatological theology? You know - literally pooping jesus.
>
> CLAIRE (11/25)
> I do believe in transubstantiation. I've argued with Protestants about
> it. There is no (physical) scatological aspect to it.....
> RICHARD (11/25):
> [Richard gives details of the trip of the unleavened bread through the digestive system -
> snipped for brevity]
....
> By the way, arguing with proddies is a waste of time. They don't even
> believe in the same 10 commandments as you do. They believe in a talking
> snake, a talking donkey, reanimates corpses - why do you waste your time
> with such losers?
CLAIRE (12/14)
Are ALL "proddies" losers? The majority of the Protestants I know are
much more open-minded than you seem to be. Not all of them are as
literal-minded as you think.
>
>RICHARD (11/25 continued):
>> You have avoided most of my questions to date - please unambiguously answer
>> the following question. Will you be an organ donor when you die?
>>
>CLAIRE
>I have checked off "yes" for organ donation on my license. However, I'm
>not sure that giving someone my organs would be doing that person a
>favor.
> RICHARD:
> Excellent. The number of catholic organ donors I have met can be counted on
> the fingers of a leper's hand.
CLAIRE (12/14)
Richard, how many Catholics do you know? Have you done a survey? Most of
the Catholics I know have told me that they would be willing to donate
their organs.
> CLAIRE (12/07)
> [to Jim Washburn]
> Jim, you are assuming because I hold SOME beliefs that you consider
> to be "irrational", that ALL of my beliefs are irrational, and I have
> no critical thinking skills. What you are saying is that atheists are
> the ONLY people with critical thinking skills (in any area). Now
> I understand!
> WASHBURN (12/07)
> Claire continues to erect straw men, label them "Jim Washburn", and
> knock them down.
> I never said Claire is incapable of a critical thought. I do say that,
> since Claire has an extremely irrational belief, which she brandishes
> like a sword, she shouldn't be considered a critical thinker or a judge
> of critical thought. For a person to be considered a critical thinker,
> that person should CONSISTENTLY reject irrational beliefs. Claire fails
> to meet this consistency criterion.
> Claire believes that an RC priest, a human who puts his pants on one leg
> at a time, can recite some mumbo-jumbo over man-made crackers and
> wine, and turn them into Jesus's (whoever the hell he is) actual flesh
> and blood, and yet she claims to be a critical thinker. I swear I can't
> think of anything more logically inconsistent than this. It's a
> ridiculous, absurd, superstitious belief. To me, the saddest part is
> that there are over a billion people in the world who collectively
> contribute vast amounts of money to the purveyors of this bullshit.
> Jim Washburn
CLAIRE (12/14)
Dear Jim:
I interpreted the sarcastic comment "Claire certainly knows critical
thinking when she sees it." as an assertion that I was incapable of
critical thinking. I apologize for misunderstanding you. How do I
brandish my extremely irrational belief in transubstantiation like a
sword?
The Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation states that the SUBSTANCE of
the bread and wine offered at the Eucharist is changed into the
SUBSTANCE of the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The ACCIDENTS of the
bread and wine are not transformed. The accidents will make the usual
trip through the digestive system.
I quote (or paraphrase) from the articles on "Transubstantiation" and
"Real Presence" in the _Harper-Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism_:
Theologians "came to distinguish between the ‘substance' of the
Eucharist (the body and blood of Christ) and the ‘accidents' of bread
and wine (their weight, texture, color, etc.) The [accidents] remain,
even as the substance of bread and wine changes into the substance of
Christ's body and blood... [The Council of Trent's use of the word
‘transubstantiation'] was intended not to explain HOW the change takes
place but to provide a term that describes WHAT takes place."
"As the Risen Lord, [Christ] is no longer bound by the constraints of a
particular time and place and thus can be present when his disciples
gather to pray, invoke his name for healing, proclaim his gospel,
forgive sins, suffer for his sake, and assemble to remember his Last
Supper with his disciples. Fundamental to the recognition of this
presence was the Church's experience of the power of the Spirit of the
Lord transforming it into the community of his body and empowering it to
continue his mission.
"The accounts of the Last Supper in the three synoptic gospels (Matt
26:26-30; Mark 14:22-26; Luke 22:14-20), as well as in Paul's First
Letter to the Corinthians (11:23-25) and the Bread of Life discourse in
the Gospel of John (ch. 6) attest to the celebration of the Lord's
Supper in the NT Church. Paul and John also speak of the bread and wine
in terms strong enough to evidence the belief of the first-century
Church in the presence of the body and blood of Christ: Paul speaks of
sharing in the body and blood of Christ (1 Cor 10:16-17; 11:27) and John
speaks of eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood (6:52-56).
"...The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist flows from his total
self-gift on the cross and his will to make that gift effective for all
people throughout history. Thus the purpose of his presence is
communion with his Church through his body and blood."
~Claire O'Connor