By the way, keep the posts coming, Yoel. I thought I would just hear some
arguements on this list. But between you and Farrell, I'm getting quite an
education.
Mike Vaujin
The first great step towards progress, is, for man to cease to be the slave of
man; the second, to cease to be the slave of the monsters of his own creation.
Robert Ingersoll
Izz-
>In Mark, Jesus enters Jerusalem, looks around, then goes to Bethany for the
>night. Mark 11:12: "The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was
>hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it
>had any fruit" (You mean the same guy who can predict the future, who knows
>all things, doesn't know if the tree had fruit? - How come, Yoel the
>Fundie?)....
yoel-
Don't you see, Izzy Stardust, how Jesus, in this passage is displaying his
immense love? Jesus the omniscient God knew very well that the tree would
be bearing no fruit. Nevertheless, he gave the tree FREEWILL and gave it
special dispensation in which to prove that it could produce fruit, even
though he knew beforehand that it would have no fruit.
Izz-
"When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves...." (I bet he
>was disappointed!.... don't forget, he is on his way back to Jerusalem and
>the disciples are with him and watching)...."because it was not the season
>for figs"
yoel-
No, Izzy, you fail to understand. Jesus was displaying the utmost patience
with the tree by not destroying it from the start. Instead, he gave the
tree a choice, a chance to see the evil of its ways and put forth fruit.
Jesus was willing that the tree would repent, nevertheless, the stiffnecked
tree continued to reject god, refusing to put forth fruit, so it received
the wages for its sin. This is not God's fault, but rather the tree's
fault- the tree CHOSE Satan instead of God.
Izz-
(You think the disciples were whispering to each other, "What is
>he doing?" "I don't know. He said he was hungry." "Yeah, but everyone knows
>there are no figs this time of year" "Ok, YOU tell him!" "Look, he found
>out for himself!")
yoel-
Hmm, Izz, good question. I can't disagree with you that something very much
like this may have been said. However, this in no way shows any failing on
the part of Jesus, rather, it shows the depravity of the disciples, who
were Jews, I might add. Yes, these 12 men had been priveleged above their
peers into the divine nature of Jesus, but they insisted on relying on what
their eyes told them. They insisted on living by the rules of reason and
logic instead of faith. So, God confounded their wisdom with Christ's
foolishness.
Izz-
Mark goes on "Then [Jesus] said to the tree, "May no one
>ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say
>it."....(Disciples: "Listen! He is cursing that tree!" "Are you not glad now
>YOU didn't tell him!") .... Mark then says that Jesus entered the temple and
>"cleansed" it, overturning the tables, etc. (Disciple: "I AM glad I did not
>tell him! He is really pissed today!"
yoel-
Are you mocking the Lord, Izz? Are you trying to pigeonhole god into some
container of your own making? Is He not both willing and able to provide
all of our needs according to his riches and glory? Why would you reject
Jesus a-priori just because of what YOU fail to see. I see no contradiction
here, rather, I see a sinner intent on demolishing something precious. What
do YOU believe, Izz?
Izz-
>So now, Yoel, you want to add MATTHEW??? Ok.....Matthew 21:12-21 "Jesus
>entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying.... He overturned
>the tables... And then he left them and [spent the night at Bethany]....
>Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.
yoel-
Yes, as saviour of the world, fully God and fully man, he had very right to
be.
Izz-
>Seeing a fig tree by the road he went up to it...." (So Yoel, you are saying
>the Son of God is stupid enough to go back to the same tree he cursed
>yesterday, and look for figs again, out of season?)
yoel-
No, Izz, I am not calling the Lord stupid. I am just saying that you do not
know all of the circumstances involved. Jesus did.
Izz-
But Yoel, Mark 11:20
>contradicts... it says that "In the morning, as they went along, they saw the
>fig tree withered from the roots." Which was it, Yoel? Was the tree
>withered the next morning, like Mark says, or did it have leaves like Matthew
>says, because in Matthew, Jesus hasn't cursed it yet?
yoel-
Izz, all of your misunderstandings spring from a lack of knowledge into the
Biblical Greek text and Judaean culture and Aramaic ARCHAISMS.
The ancient Jews considered half a tree as if it was the entire tree.
Therefore, "tree" = .5 tree. You see? So, when Mark tells us that Jesus saw
a withered tree (read half-tree) it is ipissima vox, that is from the
viewpoint of Mark, who was standing near the withered half of the tree.
When Matthew mentions the leaves, in typical first century ipissima vox
fashion, he describes the scene from his point of view from the living half
of the tree. There is no conflict here.
Izz-
>Mark now says that Peter pointed out to Jesus that the tree was withered,
but >Matthew said that
>Jesus went up to it... Matthew continues,"...[he] found nothing on it except
>leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the
>tree withered."
yoel-
Doesn't this prove his authority, Izz? Could any ordinary man do such a
thing? No, Jesus was unique. His very ability to curse the tree AND MAKE IT
WITHER IMMEDIATELY confirmed Jesus' right to do so.
Izz-
Ok, Yoel which way was it? Did they find the tree whithered,
>as Mark says, or was the tree still with leaves on the second day, and Jesus
>went up to it (a second time, you say!) and then cursed it and it whithered
>on the spot?
yoel-
I have already explained this. But let me explain to you something else,
Izz. Scholars universally agree that the Old Testament uses the fig tree as
an allegory for Israel. The verse in Mark, where the tree was withered,
represents Jesus' first coming, when the Jews were withered and cursed
because they received him not. Matthew's green-leafed version, however,
describes the prophecied State of Israel blossoming in the desert. The
reason that the Lord cursed this tree is because they are, after all, Jews
and still receive him not. Get it?
Izz-
>You are in a hole, Yoel!
yoel-
Izz, there is not reason for you to use such vulgarities. I have treated
you with respect in spite of the fact that you are a lying heathen heretic
who will burn forever in hell. I expect no less. Why are you so bitter?
Have I injured your manhood?
Izz-
Your "the tree was cursed twice" explaination is easy to say,
>but it just shows you are waving your hands and inventing an answer, which a
>reading of the actual text shows cannot have happened. This contradiction is
>not so easy to dismiss as you seem to think. It is still standing.
yoel-
No, Izz, not MY tree, God's tree. As every recipient of this list can
attest, I have succeeded in demolishing your arguemts. You have yet to
prove anything. Izz, why don't you reconsider your position? You are on a
one way path to nowhere. There is a balm in Gilead.
In His serpent,
yoel jones