On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 IzzAtheist@AOL.COM wrote:
> Yoel writes:
>
> > Then of course you have the problem of WHEN the amazing mystical Jesus
> > "cleansed" the temple:
> >
> > The synoptic gospels (Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, Luke 19:45-46)
> have
> > him doing this deed toward the end of his "ministry", shortly befor his
> > crucifixion.
> >
> > The gospel of John chapter 2: 14-19), has him doing it (with a whip that
> he
> > himself made) at the beginning of his ministry, right after the wedding at
> > Cana, almost immediately after calling his disciples.
> >
> > Oh, but let me guess... Jesus "cleansed" the temple twice. I guess that
> > after the first time the Temple officials didn't figure out that they
> > shouldn't let this violent whip-wielding maniac near the temple. A maniac
> > whose fame, according to the NT had spread throughout the country, so that
> > multitudes welcomed him into Jerusalem and the threatened Jewish religious
> > leaders were testing him and looking for ways to kill him.
> >
> > Do I get a brownie-button from the Holy Spirit for rightly "discerning the
> > word of truth"?
>
> Izz
>
> You get a brownie point, Yoel, for pointing out another contradiction, that
> John and the synoptic gospels disagree about when in his ministry Jesus
> cleansed the Temple. BUT.... you aren't getting off the hook with your
> fundie excuse that Jesus cursed the tree twice... that's impossible according
> to the way Matthew and Mark are written:
>
> In Mark, Jesus enters Jerusalem, looks around, then goes to Bethany for the
> night. Mark 11:12: "The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was
> hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it
> had any fruit" (You mean the same guy who can predict the future, who knows
> all things, doesn't know if the tree had fruit? - How come, Yoel the
> Fundie?)...."When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves...." (I bet he
> was disappointed!.... don't forget, he is on his way back to Jerusalem and
> the disciples are with him and watching)...."because it was not the season
> for figs" (You think the disciples were whispering to each other, "What is
> he doing?" "I don't know. He said he was hungry." "Yeah, but everyone knows
> there are no figs this time of year" "Ok, YOU tell him!" "Look, he found
> out for himself!") Mark goes on "Then [Jesus] said to the tree, "May no one
> ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say
> it."....(Disciples: "Listen! He is cursing that tree!" "Are you not glad now
> YOU didn't tell him!") .... Mark then says that Jesus entered the temple and
> "cleansed" it, overturning the tables, etc. (Disciple: "I AM glad I did not
> tell him! He is really pissed today!"
>
> So now, Yoel, you want to add MATTHEW??? Ok.....Matthew 21:12-21 "Jesus
> entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying.... He overturned
> the tables... And then he left them and [spent the night at Bethany]....
> Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.
> Seeing a fig tree by the road he went up to it...." (So Yoel, you are saying
> the Son of God is stupid enough to go back to the same tree he cursed
> yesterday, and look for figs again, out of season?) But Yoel, Mark 11:20
> contradicts... it says that "In the morning, as they went along, they saw the
> fig tree withered from the roots." Which was it, Yoel? Was the tree
> withered the next morning, like Mark says, or did it have leaves like Matthew
> says, because in Matthew, Jesus hasn't cursed it yet? Mark now says that Pete
> r pointed out to Jesus that the tree was withered, but Matthew said that
> Jesus went up to it... Matthew continues,"...[he] found nothing on it except
> leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the
> tree withered." Ok, Yoel which way was it? Did they find the tree whithered,
> as Mark says, or was the tree still with leaves on the second day, and Jesus
> went up to it (a second time, you say!) and then cursed it and it whithered
> on the spot? In which case, how do you account for Peter's words? You are in
> a hole, Yoel! Your "the tree was cursed twice" explaination is easy to say,
> but it just shows you are waving your hands and inventing an answer, which a
> reading of the actual text shows cannot have happened. This contradiction is
> not so easy to dismiss as you seem to think. It is still standing.
>
>
> This is fun!
>
> Izz
>
> PS - Hobbs I will deal with you next!
>
>