Mark Irwin (4/19)
I'm not Aubrey, but i would like to respond to your "bait".
Izz
Bait? More like a gentle attempt to encourage Aubrey to get into a discussion
on inerrancy, since Aubrey is so prone to wander off-topic. I might add, you
and I have never spoken before, and you have just sent me a private letter.
Where is the salutation? A word of introduction? Any attempt to establish
rapport? I point out the unfriendly nature of your letter, since a typical
Christian comment is that we atheists are hostile. Well, let's see what else
you have to say.
Mark:
I am aware of places in which the NIV Bible appears to contradict itself,
especially in the area of numercial kinship records.
Izz
"apparent" contradictions? Then you must feel there are no real
contradictions in the NIV? Please clarify.
Mark:
The "contradictions" that certain people like to point out, ever so smugly,
(thinking that they have found this great anti-Bible revelation no doubt)
have no theological relevance or doctrinal importance.
Izz
Hahahahaha... you are a riot, Mark! No wonder you sent this to me privately.
Sorry, I just have to share this with the others on the list. It would be
selfish of me to keep all the fun to myself. Mark, you think that none of
the contradictions presented on the list have doctrinal importance? What list
have you been on? The LSD list?
Yes, I know that there are huge books listing Bible contradictions. Still,
I find it intellectually challenging to read the Bible on my own, and see
what strikes me as incorrect, without having it pointed out to me. You might
try the same thing, even though your mind is already influenced by
commentaries you have already read. By the way, Dardedar has written an
excellent book listing just a few of the known contradictions. There are
about 500 in his book. I don't think you will find a single significant
doctrine that Dardedar has not covered.
Mark
Think about this: on all the attacks that the Bible has faced over the
centuries, wouldn't you think that this would have been brought
up before??
Izz
Yes, the contradictions were brought up long ago. The Greeks and others wrote
books showing the absurdities of Christian stories and doctrines, but the
Christians made sure these books did not survive. However, the Christians in
power also made sure that the rebuttals to these books did survive, so we can
guess at the contents of the books that attacked Christianity. As
Christianity gradually lost the power to destroy books that exposed its
frauds, and to murder those who spread the truth about its lies, more and
more material became availible detailing the many contradictions in the
Bible. This mailing list itself is the cutting edge of efforts to spread
knowledge.
Mark
Apparently those who compiled the canon had no problem with the "so called"
contradictions that you might so gleefully point out.
Izz
How do you know? Do you think that compromises where not made, that politics
where not involved? How do you know the attitudes that the compilers
possessed? Are you assuming their theology matches your own? Do you think
that the versions of the Bible we have today are exactly the same as the ones
in AD 400? See my previous post on 1 John for a good example of how the KJV
is different than what was around in AD 400.
Mark
Some of these "so called contradictions" are easy to explain, showing that
that they eare not contradicting, others are not. Unless, you are a Bible
student, or if you know how to exegete scripture properly and scholarly,
these "so called contradiction" statements carry absolutley no reliability or
validity.
Izz
Are you saying that only a Bible scholar can point out a contradiction?
Sorry, but a mistake is a mistake, and anyone can point it out. If it is not
really a mistake, then let a Bible scholar show why it isn't. But Mark, I
think that you will find out to your surprise that Bible scholarship has a
vastly different opinion about the Bible and the Christian doctrines than you
do.
Mark
And besides, in all reality.....does it really matter? Not really.
Izz
If you do not think that the subject of mistakes in the Bible is important,
than why do you address the issue? Why are you on this list?
Mark
If anything, I think that people who say that they don't believe in God, but
continually try to disprove him are only attempting to rationalize and
justify
their own disbelief.
Izz
There is nothing wrong with publically presenting your views, testing them in
the fire of open debate. It is a good way to verify that your reasoning is
sound. You are taking a virture, and calling it a fault. The true fault is to
blindly hold opinions that others have taught you, and never question them.
Mark
I mean, if you don't believe in God, why do you spend so much time trying to
disprove him to others? What should it matter to you?
Izz
Mark, when have I ever tried to disprove the existance of God on the list? On
the contrary, I freely agree for the sake of discussion that God exists, and
that God is not Allah or Krishna but is God of the Christian Bible. Now,
since you have never heard me try and prove God's non-existence, I must point
out that you are not really even refering to me in this last series of
comments, but are talking about some fantasy image you have of atheists.
Mark
Do you have nothing better to do with your time?
Izz
How rude of you to challenge me on how I like to spend my free time! I can be
rude back, you know! Not a very friendly way to start a correspondence.
Mark
I don't believe in UFO's, but you don't see me trying to justify this
unbelief to those who do believe in them. They're not hurting me any. And
if I find their beliefs pointless and foolish, so what. If I were to
attempt to rid the world of foolishness, I would start in Washington D.C.
Their beliefs in UFO's is unimportant to me. My time is much more valuable.
Izz
Some men are willing to fight lies and false doctrines. There are scientists
who devote time to exposing UFO myths and other pseudo-scientific fallacies.
Are you saying these men are wasting their time?
To my knowledge, UFO believers have never tried to make the laws of the
United States conform to their beliefs. But Christians do use the Bible as
justification for their attempts to enact legislation. Therefore, the
doctrine of inerrancy is of interest to every American. Christians also try
and convince others of their beliefs, including the doctrine of inerrancy.
This doctrine is both false and vicious, and it is virtuous to combat the
propagation of this evil.
Mark
As for my belief in God, I trust and love God. I see his presence in all
that I
see. I believe that Jesus Christ offered up his life as a ransom for me and
you, so that mankind could once again have a relationship with God. God has
worked in a mighty way in my life as he has others.
Izz
Mark, who cares what your delusions are? I don't, until you start acting on
them, by trying to spread them to others, or by promoting bad laws because
you think God commands them. Why are you even writing to me?
Mark
Sure you can comeback and say...what about the crusades? The inquisition?
Jim Bakker? Priests abusing altar boys? These people weren't working in
God's will.
Izz
No, they weren't, I agree. (God does not exist!) These examples do show that
being a Christian is no indication of a person's moral standing.
Mark
If you want to hurt Christianity, instead of baiting others on "so called
Bible contradictions", why don't you become a wolf in sheeps clothing, like
the priest who likes little boys, or the TV evangelist who gets caught having
an affair while bilking others of their money? You would probably be much
more effective.
Izz
Sorry, Mark, but I do not want to molest little boys, nor bilk people out of
money. Nor am I very anti-Christian. I do, however, think that the doctrine
of Biblical inerrancy is both false and evil.
Mark
God loves you and he wants you to know him. He wants the best that life has
to offer for you.
Izz
I have never seen the slightest shred of evidence for what you just said.
Upon reflection, I don't think what you said corresponds to any reality at
all, but is on par with saying, "Santa Claus loves you." Perhaps your problem
is that no one has introduced you to the Invisible Pink Unicorn. She loves
you, you know. Why do you repay her by ignoring her? Don't you fear her
mighty hooves?
Mark
Trust in him. Ask him to reveal himself to you.
Izz
You want me to trust in a fantasy I make up? You want me to talk to nothing?
Is this going to end up with me being sent to a UFO behind a comet?
Mark
He is a consuming fire.
Izz
Sorry, but I do not understand this metaphor. Or are you saying God is fire?
Mark
There is historical proof on the existence of Christ.
Izz
Name it. Note: I want independent historical sources, not Bible quotes.
(I ask Mr. Till's permission on this off-topic request, since the statement
seems to come up so often. Mark needs to know the scarcity of reliable
historical sources.)
Mark
He said he was Lord.
Izz
He did? Prove it. I don't think he said any such thing.
Mark
Was he Lord? or was he a liar? or was he a lunatic?
Izz
He was a legend, made up later, around an actual man named Jesus of whom we
know almost nothing. The legend has changed over time.
Mark
Something can not be true and false at the same time. There is only one
right answer. Who do you say Jesus was?
Izz
Some things are neither true nor false. Some things have many right answers,
or none at all. To me, Jesus is a fictional character in the Bible, and also
a man who lived long ago of whom we know very little about.
Mark:
In His service and yours,
Mark Irvin
Izz
In my service? Ok, I accept your offer. You may serve me by sending me a $20
bill. Let me know if you are going to follow through with your offer, and I
will tell you where to send it. Hurry, I need the money. Oh, and by the way,
your inerrant Bible commands you to do as I ask. See Luke 6:30. If you are a
real Christian you will know of other passages that support your giving away
your money to me, too.
Izz
P.S. Please try and keep your comments on the issue of inerrancy, ok? Also,
I will publish all your letters to the list, so you might as well post them
there yourself.
"Over the past centuries bibliolatry has led Christians to bigotry, the
persecution of Jews and other non-Christians, murder and terrorism, the
oppression of women, the suppression of sexuality, censorship, cult
mentality, and other aberrations. These destructive behavior patterns can be
easily traced to the unchallenged authority accorded biblical writing." from
"Going by the Book" by Ernie Bringas, Master of Divinity, minister of the
United Methodist Church.