RALPH 4/19
Both Michael and I had pointed out that Jesus of Nazareth, the historical
Jesus, did NOT found a church. He was born a Jew, he lived a Jew, and he
died a Jew. He knew absolutely nothing about the Pauline notion of original
sin, which is the foundation stone of the Xian religion. Paul's writings
predate everything else in the NT.
Of course I know about the Christ hymns that you mention below. But they
tell us nothing about a historical Jesus. Neither does Paul seem to know
anything about a real, historical Jesus. Don't be fooled by the term
"Christ." It is not the name of a real man, it is simply the Greek for
"Anointed," or Mashiach (Messiah) in Hebrew. It is quite possible that a
Christ cult had been in existence long before a historical Jesus lived and
died. Don't forget that there were other cults that celebrated a dying and
resurrected savior floating around at the time. Thank you for Bornkamm's
quotation. Notice that he says that the Christ hymn was "formed LONG before
Paul and here appropriated by him." Lapide simply seconds that statement.
But the fact that these hymns or creeds say nothing about the personality
or dates of their Anointed One, plus the fact that even Paul, at a later
date, knows nothing about the Historical Jesus, tells us that the religion
promoted by Paul had very little to do with the religion of the historical
Jesus of Nazareth. Thank you once again for your quotations, Walt.
WALT JR 4/18
>One of the reasons we know this is because Paul quotes from a source that
>was in existence within just a few years of the death of Christ. I Cor.
>15:3-5(8) as well as Philippians 2:6-11(among others) have been
>acknowledged by scholars of all schools of thought to be an early
>creed/hymn that was in existence within just a few years after the death
>of Christ. So, this would demonstrate that prior to Paul's conversion,
>there was already the belief in Christ dying, being buried, and rising
>again. Therefore, Paul could not have been the "inventor" of
>christianity. Consider the words of Gunther Bornkamm, former professor of
>New Testament exegesis at Heidelberg Univ. and pupil of Rudolf Bultmann:
>
>"Phil. 2:6-11, as E. Lohmeyer first recognized, is a Christ-hymn, formed
>long before Paul and here appropriated by him. This understanding has
>rightly prevailed, even if the opinions of scholars do not agree on its
>origin, stanza-division and liturgical usage. The numerous motifs and
>phrases not to be found elsewhere in Paul POINT TO AN EARLIER ORIGIN."
> ["Early Christian Experience" pp. 112-113]
>
>Consider Pinchas Lapide, a Jewish New Testament scholar, in his work "The
>Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective" on the early creed of I Cor.
>15:3-5(8)
>
>"Eight linguistic items speak in favor of the fact that Paul in this
>oldest faith statement about the resurrection DOES NOT PASS ON HIS OWN
>THOUGHTS but indeed "delivers" what he himself has "received" from the
>first witnesses..."
> ["The Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective" p. 98]
>
>Ralph, I hope this information will be informative for you the next time
>you make such blanket statements.
>
>His,
>Walt Jr.
>
>----------
>From: Ralph Nielsen[SMTP:nielsen@uidaho.edu]
>Sent: 17 April 1997 20:50
>To: Biblical Errancy Discussion List
>Subject: Re: Even more on what Walt Jr. believes
>
>MICHAEL FISHER, after reading web site of Dallas Theological Seminary,
>where Walt, Jr. studies, 4/17
>
>> If you even scan through doing nothing but looking at the
>>scriptural references, there is one thing that truly truly stands
>>out-and which I have noted in other such statements (having poked around
>>a bit).
>>
>> Christian doctrine has remarkably little to do with anything
>>that Christ supposedly said.
>>
>> Christians would be much more accurately called Paulists.
>>
>RALPH NIELSEN 4/17
>Exactly. The inventor of Xianity is Paul, as every scholar knows.
>
>As for the alleged words of Jesus, most of them seem improbable. Those that
>do make sense are not original; they are Jewish. This is no surprise, of
>course, because JESUS WAS A JEW.
>
>I bet Jesus would not be accepted at Dallas Theological Seminary. He would
>fail the entrance requirements. And he would be shunned by students like
>Walt, Jr. because he would certainly not be a Republican.