Re: Heavens Gate (to David)

Ian Dorion (dorioni@intellinet.com)
Tue, 01 Apr 1997 07:29:40 -0600

David Court wrote:
>
> > WALT, JR 3/31
> > >Just as the actions of Hitler and Stalin and Tung is a reminder to people
> > >who take atheism seriously. Sorry Ralph, but your logic is really bad
> > >here. For you to connect people of faith universally with the Heaven's
> > >Gate group is equivalent to me connecting all atheists with the likes of
> > >Hitler and Stalin. How about we try to use our minds a little better than
> > >that?
> > >
> > >His,
> > >Walt Jr.
>
> (Christ-Ian 3/31) Walt Jr., Not only was Hitler a Catholic, Pope Pius XII gave
> silent approval to Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jews.
>
> As far as people of faith go, I have yet to see a Christian die as happy as the
> Heaven's Gate group.
>
> (DAVe 3/31) Ian: How about Stalin? Can you connect him to Christianity
> too? I'm sure there is a way to do it. Can't wait to see what you come up
> with. Oh yes, and Tung. They MUST have talked to a Christian at some time
> - that must qualify them eh?
> (Christ-Ian 4/1) Sorry, I was tired last night when I answed. I know little about
Stalin's religious beliefs so I bow to Stephen Carr. Tung is not even mentioned in
"The Timetables of History" and I have never heard of him.

> Secondly, I would be interested to know what your definition is of a
> "Christian". Just like the word "good", you may be tossing around words
> that you aren't sure of. What you have implied is that, say, Billy Graham
> and Adolf Hitler are both Christians - is that what you're saying? If so,
> that's one pretty broad definition - that's one pretty all inclusive group -
> so what is a Christian, Ian?

(Christ-Ian 4/1) A "Christian" is anyone who calls themselves a christian just like an
atheist is anyone who calls themselves an atheist. Some, may have deluded themselves
into thinking they are christians - you perhaps? Certainly Billy Graham isn't living the
same life style of your alleged Jesus, is he? He goes first class does he not? He's
chauffered around in luxary automobiles is he not? He stays at the finest hotels, does
he not? I don't expect him to ride around on an ass, but really, where is the
similarity?

> Finally, your last comment is ridiculous - I'm sure it had the desired
> meaning that it shows - nothing that anyone can see. You have no idea what
> these people were feeling when they died. And I have seen Christian's die
> "happy" (as happy as anyone can be about dying) - your final statement here
> can be dismissed on the grounds of ignorance.

(Christ-Ian 4/1) You must not have watched the farewell tapes of the Heaven's Gate
people. They were very calm, relaxed, and happy to be going. Apparently they made the
tapes to assure their friends and loved ones that they were happy to be going. Then have
Christians of any OTHER denomination, sect or cult done anything like this?

> Come on, Ian - you seem like a reasonable guy - you often ask very
> interesting and introspective questions - and then seem to answer them with
> your own opinions - seems you really either don't want to know any more then
> you do, or you're scared to find anymore out. Is your mind made up?

(Christ-Ian 4/1) Well David, I am a reasonable person but not all the time. Sometimes
when I'm tired I screw up. Like last night when I answered you on what good is. You like
to quibble and frankly, I get tired of it. Is my mind made up? Well, yes. And no. If I
were afraid of finding out anymore, I would not have read and studied the Penteteuch.

> I, for one, would be happy if you remained the sincere and reasonable Ian
> and cut out this nonsense as you've put forth above. It serves no purpose.
>
> With respect,
>
> Dave.(Christ-Ian) I see nothing nonsensical about my claim that Hitler was a Christian or
that Pope Pius XII approved of the extermination of the Jews. I see nothing nonsensical
about the Heaven's Gate people being happy to go. Of course, they did seem to screw up
in that there were only 39 of them instead of the great biblical number of forty but I
guess we can round it off like we always do.