<< > > Dear Izz-
> > The Bible also says the opposite- that Children will not be punished
for
> > the parents sins.
>
> Izz
> <GASP> You mean... the Bible has a CONTRADICTION? Well... I guess that
means
> the Bible is not inerrant. Unless anyone objects, that means the list has
> solved the question, conclusively. Wow, we did it, Yoel, we solved the
whole
> question. >>
DAR
Here is a length response that Matthew Burdette gave to this Bible
problem:
Subj: The Sin of the Fathers
Date: 96-11-28 11:57:41 EST
From: burdette@netacc.net (Matthew)
Sender: errancy@atheist.tamu.edu
Reply-to: errancy@atheist.tamu.edu
To: errancy@atheist.tamu.edu (Multiple recipients of list)
DAR 11/27
> Dear Matthew, I have a problem with the following comments found in
>the Bible. The words in these verses seem to me to be in conflict with each
>other. Perhaps you can make the problem go away.
> This verse seems to me to clearly be saying that the God of the Bible
>does NOT support the punishing of children for the sins of their fathers.
Matthew 11/28
Thank you very much, Darrell. Yes, I can see how you might be confused, but
the answer is quite simple.
DAR 11/27
>(1a)
> The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall
>the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be
>put to death for his own sin. Deut. 24:16
>
> This seems quite clear and makes sense to me. If I were to believe in a
>caring all-powerful god I would like to think that he would have no part of
>punishing children (or other relatives) for the behavior of their fathers or
>even punishing someone for the behavior of someone else.
> This following verse also seems to be clearly consistent with this one:
>
>(1b)
> Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the
>father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and
>hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
>The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the
>iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of
>the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and
>the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezek. 18:19, 20.
>
> That "[t]he son shall not bear the iniquity of the father...". seems
>quite
>clear to me.
>
> Now, consider each of the scriptures and examples that follow. I have
>labeled them so you can keep them straight when you respond. It seems to
>me that these give examples of this very same god, in his very same book,
>punishing children for the behavior of their fathers or in some instances
>even distant ancestors:
>
>(2a)
> ...I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
>the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
>of them that hate me; Exod. 20:5
>
>(2b)
> Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression
>and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the
>iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the
>children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
>Exod. 34:7 also Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9
>
>(2c)
> Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to
>the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born
>unto thee shall surely die. 2 Sam. 12:14
>
>(2d)
> And the word of the LORD came to Elijah... Seest thou how Ahab
>humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before
>me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I
>bring the evil upon his house. 1 Kings 21:28, 29
>
>(2e)
> Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
>fathers. Isaiah. 14:21
>
>(2f)
> Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest
>the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after
>them... Jer. 32:18
>
> Could you please deal with each one of these verses? Also, would it be
>too much to ask that you not add words that are not in the verses
>themselves and also not to delete information in them? That would be
>great. Thanks.
Matthew 11/28
I think that I can address your concern by concentrating on Ezekiel 18 and
Ex. 20.
Ezek 18:20
20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the
guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The
righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the
wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (NIV)
Ezekiel 18 are words concerning the Israelites violation of Deut. 24:16,
which you quoted above. Note the following:
Ezek 18:1-4
1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
"'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer
quote this proverb in Israel.
4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-- both
alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
(NIV)
What God is saying is that every living soul belongs to Him. As you know,
He has set up certain regulations which deserve punishment, some including
the death penalty. When proven through whatever legal system was in place
at the time Ezekiel 18 was written, the violator can be put to death where
the death penalty exists. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
This thoughtware carries through Eze. 18. As such, God is telling the
Isrealites that they cannot put to death the children of the guilty person
because they continue to belong to Him.
Remember, though, God is saying that while the guilty can be punished by
other people for crimes they have committed, their children still belong to
Him and cannot be legitimately punshed.
Exod 20:5
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God,
am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the
third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
(NIV)
Again, all human life belongs to God. It is He gives life; it is only He
who can take it away.
The concept throughout the OT is that children suffer as a result of the
sins of the father. This is certainly a hard concept for twentieth-century
man to accept (although it is still in effect today), but since we are not
talking about God's morals here, I will not dwell on providing my view here
on it.
Ezekiel 18 concerns man punishing man. Ex. 20:5 and the other verses above
concern God punishing man, although He might use men to help Him do it.
Since God knows best, He can make just decisions that we as men cannot make.
Hope that this helps,
In Christ,
Matthew
*********************
END OF POST
*********************
What follows is my response to him which I sent on 12/2:
<<MATT
I think that I can address your concern by concentrating on Ezekiel 18 and
Ex. 20. >>
DAR
I don't really see this could address my concern considering that I have
very little problem with these verses. It seems to me that it is 2a through
2h that
cause the problem. Hmmm... seems you didn't even address those.
<<MATT
Ezek 18:20
20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share
the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The
righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the
wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (NIV)
Ezekiel 18 are words concerning the Israelites violation of Deut. 24:16,
which you quoted above. Note the following:
Ezek 18:1-4
1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land
of Israel: "'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on
edge'?
3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no
longer quote this proverb in Israel.
4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--
both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
(NIV)
What God is saying is that every living soul belongs to Him. As you
know, He has set up certain regulations which deserve punishment, some
including the death penalty. When proven through whatever legal system
was in place at the time Ezekiel 18 was written, the violator can be put to
death where the death penalty exists. The soul who sins is the one who will
die. >>
DAR
Ahh, but that is not what happens is it? Could you please reconcile this
statement that "The soul who sins is the one who will die" with all of the
following verses (and there are several more), which give clear examples of
where it is not "the soul who sins" who is punished but often the
descendants of "the soul who sins."
(2a)
...I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
of them that hate me; Exod. 20:5
(2b)
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression
and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the
children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Exod. 34:7 also Num. 14:18, Deut. 5:9
(2c)
Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to
the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born
unto thee shall surely die. 2 Sam. 12:14
(2d)
And the word of the LORD came to Elijah... Seest thou how Ahab
humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before
me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I
bring the evil upon his house. 1 Kings 21:28, 29
(2e)
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
fathers. Isaiah. 14:21
(2f)
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest
the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after
them... Jer. 32:18
Dar< I see also that you have switched translations. Personally I have no
respect for the New International Version so it may be difficult for you
impress me with your argument if you must rely upon it. I think it is a
fundamentalist tract written by fundamentalists, for fundamentalists.
Just as you would probably find it inappropriate if I was to trying to
argue against the merits of the Trinity by using the J.W. New World
Translation, I find it suspect when an inerrantist must resort to a
translation
written exclusively by inerrantists. My reasons for this are well based and I
have taken a portion of my book to give reasons and "data" for this
opinion of this translation and others. For example, Dr. Edward P. Blair
in The Illustrated Bible
Handbook, states that the translators of the NIV were expected to
subscribe to the "high view of Scripture" as put forth by the "Westminster
Confession of faith," the "Belgic Confession," and the "Statement of Faith"
of the National Association of Evangelicals. Even in their forward they
admit that the NIV team was extremely selective in choosing its "scholars"
(using the term very loosely):
"[T]he translators were united in their commitment to the authority and
infallibility of the Bible as God's Word in written form. They believe that
it
contains the divine answer to the deepest needs of humanity, that it sheds
light on our path in a dark world, and that it sets forth the way to our
eternal well-being."
As Dan Barker once said: "This is not the agenda of a team of objective
scholars! This is evangelism."
If you have trouble straying from this translation, persist I suppose but
I
do think it may be a hindrance to your trying to convey your message to me
and the many others who are aware of the blatant prejudice of this
fundamentalist work.
<<MATT
This thoughtware carries through Eze. 18. As such, God is telling the
Isrealites that they cannot put to death the children of the guilty person
because they continue to belong to Him.>>
DAR
And how do you square your statement:
"God is telling the Israelites that they cannot put to death the children
of
the guilty person..."
With 2e?:
(2e)
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their
fathers. Isaiah. 14:21
And other instances where "the Israelites" clearly DID "put to death
the children of the guilty person?" That would be a neat trick.
<<MATT
Remember, though, God is saying that while the guilty can be punished by
other people for crimes they have committed, their children still belong to
Him and cannot be legitimately punshed.>>
DAR
If you were trying to paraphrase Deut. 24:16 and Ezek. 18:19, 20 you
have spoken well. However, what you state here does not seem to me, to
agree with the many examples where the children and later very distant
descendants are directly punished for something they were not involved
with.
<<MATT
Exod 20:5
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of
the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
(NIV)
Again, all human life belongs to God. It is He gives life; it is only He
who can take it away.>>
DAR
And I guess he can also write inconsistent things in an inerrant book too
then right? Such as, that every man should be put to death for his own sin,
and then promptly turn around and do the opposite by killing men women
and children because of someone else's sin.
<<MATT
The concept throughout the OT is that children suffer as a result of the
sins of the father.>>
DAR
You could have supported yourself with a verse here perhaps?
Also "suffer" is conveniently quite broad and not the issue. What I have
been drawing attention to is this God directly punishing and or murdering
people (often supposedly via other people) for the actions of others. This is
contrary to the concept in Deut. 24:16 and Ezek 18:19, 20 where "the son
shall not bear the iniquity of the father..."
<<MATT
This is certainly a hard concept for twentieth-century man to accept
(although it is still in effect today),
DAR
It is hard for any decent human being to accept. I do not agree that
today's society "punishes" (which is what at issue) descendants for the
behavior of their ancestors. It is a barbaric concept. Certainly I can
"suffer"
from an abusive or alcoholic parent, but your carefully worded "suffer" is
not at issue. I am speaking of the active, interfering action of punishing
someone. Regarding our society, here is an example:
If O.J. Simpson loses his current case and he
cannot pay the debt charged to him, society will not be garnishing the
wages of this great-grand children. That is unless the Christian
reconstructionalists can gain control. Then they could just kill his
descendants and say "God told them to do it." Or your softer variation:
"Since God knows best, He can make just decisions that we as men
cannot make."
<<MATT
...but since we are not talking about God's morals here, I will not dwell on
providing my view here on it.>>
DAR
Whew, that's good. I might lose my aplomb if we have to start talking
about the Bible God's morals. (!)
<<MATT
Ezekiel 18 concerns man punishing man. Ex. 20:5 and the other verses
above concern God punishing man, although He might use men to help Him
do it.>>
DAR
Well then all you have to do is confirm that these men killing other men
in the name of God are really doing so, and not just making the God part
up. That is rather common you know. I agree that Exod. 20:5 has this God
punishing man, the problem is that it is punishment for the behavior of
others, sometimes decades and centuries removed. That to me goes against
the concept of Ezek 18: 19, 20 which has:
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father
bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be
upon
him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
For examples contrary to this verse see examples 2a through 2f.
<<MATT
Since God knows best, He can make just decisions that we as men cannot
make. >>
DAR
That is what the religiously zealous often say just before they are about
to do something especially nasty. Here is one instance that comes to mind:
"God Is Great!" --Exclamation shouted by four heavily armed Islamic
fundamentalists as they machine gunned 17 Greek tourists and one
Egyptian to death. (4/18/96)
Near the beginning of this response you said to me:
"Yes, I can see how you might be confused, but the answer is quite
simple."
I really don't think I am confused on this but I do think your answer was
simple. And it really doesn't solve anything for me, but I certainly do
appreciate the attempt.
cheers,
Darrel
----------------------
"...an absurd problem comes to the surface: How could God permit
that{crucifixion of J.C.]!...the deranged reason of the little community
found quite a frightfully absurd answer: God gave his Son for forgiveness,
as a sacrifice... The sacrifice for guilt, and the just in its most repugnant
and
barbarous form * the sacrifice of the innocent for the sins of the guilty.
What horrifying heathenism!" --Friedrich Nietzsche
P.S.
I just thought of another example of this God punishing people for the
behavior of their distant relatives. Some may enjoy that this one also
presents another interesting problem as well:
***
A descendant of an 'illegitimate relationship' may not enter into the
congregation of the Lord. Nor can *ten generations* of their
offspring.
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even
to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the
LORD. Deut. 23:2
VERSUS
Aaron's sons were only five generations removed from Pharez, who
was conceived from a illegitimate relationship.
And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told
Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot;
and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. ...behold, twins
were in her womb [Pharez and Zerah]. Gen. 38:24, 27, 29, 30.
The sons of Judah... And Tamar his daughter in law bare him
Pharez and Zerah...
The sons of Pharez; Hezron [1],...
The sons of Hezron... Ram [2],
And Ram begat Amminadab [3]; and Amminadab begat Nahshon...
1 Chron. 2:3-5, 9, 10.
And Aaron took him Elisheba [4], daughter of Amminadab, sister
of Nashon, to wife; and she bare him Hadab, and Abihu, Eleazar
[5], and Ithamar [5]. Exod. 6:23.
**Aaron's sons were priests.**
And these are the names of the sons of Aaron; Nadab the
firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. These are the names
of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he
consecrated to minister in the priest's office. ...and Eleazar and
Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their
father. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Bring the tribe of
Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may
minister unto him. And they shall keep his charge, and the charge
of the whole congregation... And thou shalt give the Levites unto
Aaron and to his sons: they are wholly given unto him out of the
children of Israel. And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons,
and they shall wait on their priest's office:... Num. 3:2-7, 9-10.
(Also note: David was only nine generations removed from Pharez.)
*************