YOEL
<< The contradiction stands.
MT 12:30 Jesus says "He who is not for me is against me"
Mark 9:40 "For whoever is not against us is for us"
yoel >>
DAR
Here is a debate I had with someone a couple of years ago.
He was trying some of the same move you were encountering.
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Subj: Getting JC's story straight.
Date: 95-11-26 17:44:52 EST
From: RPHL
RPHL< In Luke 9:49-50, Jesus was not making a global
statement, as you presume, but was applying it to the situation
(context) at hand.
Dar< I never said it was global but I don't you can make it so
narrow as to apply only to the fellow spoken of in the verse.
Jesus did say that "he that is not against us is for us." This
would include all "he's." All Her's probably too. Actually, that
IS rather global isn't it.
RPHL< In this passage, the disciples were jealous because
nine of them together were unable to drive out an evil spirit.
(see 9:40) Yet when they saw a man who was not of their
group drive out a spirit they told him to stop... it seems their
pride was hurt because someone who was not of their group
had succeeded where they had not.
Dar< "seems their pride was hurt" is one plausible
interpretation. Doesn't change anything.
RPHL< What Jesus is saying here is that there is no room for
jealousy between his followers in the spiritual warfare of his
kingdom.
Dar< Then why didn't he say that? No, this is not what he said.
This is soooo common. Jesus didn't mean what he clearly said.
As Shaw put this: "No man ever believes that the Bible
means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he
means."
Lets deal with what he said, not what you wish he had said.
RPHL< He was encouraging them to let others outside their
group do the work of the kingdom as well as themselves for
"for WHOEVER IS NOT AGAINST YOU IS FOR YOU."
Dar< "Encouraging" softens it. It sounds more like a direct
commandment from the almighty Lord to his disciples to me.
Anyway, lets agree at this point that Jesus DID say to his
disciples, in what must be a reference to ALL other people not
within "the group": "WHOEVER IS NOT AGAINST YOU IS
FOR YOU. I take this to mean that whoever is not against you
(the disciples) is for you.
Rather straight forward really.
Then:
RPHL< The Luke 11:23 passage has a different context and is
not to be confused with the context of Luke 9:49-50.
Dar< Baloney. There is no context that you can produce
within or around these stories that will adjust these statements
of Jesus. If you really want to assert this please produce some
context that somehow adjusts or modifies these statements of
Jesus. Chapter and verse.
RPHL< The previous passage had to do with driving out
demons in Jesus' name... in other words, advancing the gospel
and the kingdom of God.
Dar< Actually, both sides of this contradiction have to do with
demon possession and the driving out of demons. Not that this
matters a great deal. What does matter is that in both instances
Jesus is taking about and referring specifically to people who
are not with him or in his group. The problem is that in one
instance he refers to these neutral ones as being for him, while
in the other he refers to that same group of neutral ones as
being against him. Hence the flat contradiction.
RPHL< In Luke 11:23 Jesus was talking about the great
conflict between God and Satan. In this battle, if a person is
not on God's side, he or she is on Satan's.
Dar< This flatly contradicts Luke 9:50 where Jesus said to his
followers, WHOEVER IS NOT AGAINST YOU IS FOR
YOU. Note that this is also essentially the same context as
Luke 9:50 where the Disciples were concerned that in what
was obviously part of this war between God and Satan,
someone other than them was able to drive out demons too.
RPHL< There is no neutral ground. This saying of Jesus
simply teaches that if you aren't actively for Christ, you are
against him.
Dar< I agree. The statement at Luke 11:23 does say in effect
that "if you aren't actively for Christ, you are against him"
when it says: "HE THAT IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST
ME."
This is why it patently contradicts Luke 9:50 which says
effectively that "WHOEVER IS NOT AGAINST" Jesus and
his followers, (this includes neutral ones) "IS FOR" Jesus and
his followers.
Hence the contradiction.
Thanks for this response RPHL. Yours is the best response
to this problem I have ever heard.
Oh... but it is also the first one I have ever heard too.
D.
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"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad." -
-Aldous Huxley