I find it quite objectionable when someone criticizes me for something that he does himself. This is one of my objections to the theistic moralists on the list who find fault with skeptics who practice subjective morality when it is obviously true that their own moral views were arrived at subjectively. To apply this to Lenardos's recent complaints about "going outside the evidence" in the matter of the resurrection, I would like to ask him to give us a demonstration of how to evaluate an extraordinary historical claim without (1) accepting the historicity of the claim, or (2) going outside the evidence in order to reject it.
The claim I want him to use in his demonstration is the Mormon claim that the angel Moroni delivered to Joseph Smith golden plates on which the Book of Mormon had been written in reformed Egyptian. The evidence that supports the likeliness of this claim would be the following:
(1) The actual existence of the Book of Mormon. It had to have an origin.
(2) The FIRSTHAND, EYE-WITNESS testimony of the three witnesses, which is reproduced below for Mr. Lenardos in case he doesn't have a copy of the Book of Mormon at hand:
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, HAVE SEEN THE PLATES which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which has been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, FOR HIS VOICE HATH DECLARED IT UNTO US; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that WE HAVE SEEN the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and LAID BEFORE OUR EYES, THAT WE BEHELD AND SAW THE PLATES, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that WE BEHELD and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the VOICE OF THE LORD COMMANDED US that we should bear record ot it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
This document was signed by the three witnesses: Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris.
(3) The tesimony of the eight witnesses, which is also reproduced for Mr. Lenardos.
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, HAS SHOWN UNTO US THE PLATES of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold, and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated WE DID HANDLE WITH OUR HANDS; and WE ALSO SAW the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which WE HAVE SEEN. And WE LIE NOT, God bearing witness of it.
This document was signed by the eight witnesses: Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jun., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sen., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith.
(4) The success of the Mormon Church in establishing itself and becoming a worldwide religion.
Now if Mr. Lenardos will use this evidence to give us a lesson in how to arrive at a decision either to accept or reject extraordinary evidence WITHOUT GOING OUTSIDE THE EVIDENCE, that would be very beneficial to the discussion of the resurrection claim.
Farrell Till Skepticism, Inc. jftill@midwest.net