TILL: Pardon me, Sammy, but your ignorance is showing through again. The Croatians are Roman Catholic (predominantly); the Serbs are Eastern Orthodox (predominantly); and the Bosnians are Muslims (predominantly). Just before the cease fire was agreed upon, the Croatian Catholics (predominantly), allied with the Bosnian Muslims (predominantly, were mopping up the Serbian Orthodox Catholics (predominantly). You really ought to read a newspaper now and then, Sammy. As it is, you seem to read newspapers about as much as you read the Bible, which can't be very much judging from your idiotic posts.
SAMMY: < I seriously doubt you even know why the Croats are wrong, much less the Serbs, for their actions. Also given the fact that there are other sides than just those two involved in the "ethic cleansing", your argument is weak and your mind is puerile.>
TILL: Well, I suppose they are wrong because they aren't members of your particular sect. That's usually the main criterion for determining wrongness in religion. Krishna's argument is weak? Well, what about one based on erroneous information, which characterized this entire posting of yours? To say that your mind is "puerile" would be a compliment, because a puerile mind can always mature. I doubt if yours ever can, because it isn't puerile; it's moronic.
SAMMY: <If all we are are bags of chemicals, then there is no reason for you to get upset, much less argue about ethics. >
TILL: Well, I guess whether one gets upset or not depends upon which bag of chemicals he is, the one doing the cleansing or the one being cleansed. I remember that the Serbs (Eastern Orthodox, predominantly) turned deaf ears to all of the protests over their cleansing of Bosnian Muslims (predominantly), but when the Croatian Catholics (predominantly) entered the fray and the Serbs (Orthodox predominantly) began to experience some of the cleansing, they immediately sent up howls of outrage and decided maybe it would be a good idea after all to sit down and talk.
SAMMY: < You're probably just another guy off the street who relies on second-hand information to form your epistemic proofs. Give it up - and resign from your VP of the Humanist Association. >
TILL: Sammy, to say that you're just another guy off the street would be a compliment. You impress me as someone who wants to be a great defender of truth, but when you find out that you have no truth to defend, all you can do is hurl insults. So just keep it up. As I said, when an opponent does that, I enjoy showing him that I have a little talent in that area too. You're very much a lightweight, Sammy. The more you post, the more you show that you don't know diddly squat about biblical apologetics.
SAMMY: <Wrong-O. If you read the history books that weren't revised by your yahoo friends, you would know that the U.S. was set up as a Christian state.
unfortunately, some of the founders were Unitarian and inserted unitarian language into the Constitution (Thomas Jefferson was deist). The 'separation of church and state" phrase is only in a letter thomas Jefferson wrote to a Methodist minister assuring him during the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate that there could be no official federal denomination (ex. The U.S. setting itself up on a Federal level as a "Baptist" nation). The phrase is not in the Consitution, and I challenge everyone here to find the phrase. Also, you should know that the language did not prohibit the individual states from setting up "official denominational" State (ex. Virginia could declare itself "Presbyterian) if it so chose.>>
TILL: Don't look now, Sammy, but your ignorance is showing again. First of all, the letter in which Jefferson referred to the wall of separation between church and state was not written to a Methodist minister; it was written to the Danbury (Connecticut) Baptist Association. "Some" of the founding fathers were Unitarian? Well, yes, "some" were, but the king pins were Deists. You've admitted that Jefferson was a Deist. In his autobiography, Benjamin Franklin said that he was a Deist. (Challenge me on this, and I will send you an exact reference you can check.) George Washington was a Deist. Christians tried desperately to claim him, but Reverend James Abercrombie, rector of the Episcopal congregation that Washington attended with his wife, told the Reverend Bird Wilson, who inquired about Washington's religious beliefs, "Sir, Washington was a Deist." (Challenge me on this, and I will cite you specific references.) James Madison was a Deist, James Monroe was a Deist, John Adams attended the Unitarian Church but was known to be Deistic. Thomas Paine was a Deist. The foundation documents of this country contain obvious Deistic expressions that shout the Deistic backgrounds of the people who were instrumental in forming this country.
The first settlers in the new world came not for religious reasons but for monetary purposes. The pilgrims came to New England for religious reasons, but look at what they did after they got here. They formed governments that exiled dissenters, killed Quakers, and hanged witches. Is this what you want, Sammy? Well, you can have it. However, it would be a good idea for you to learn a little bit about American history before you shoot off your mouth again about the "Christian nation myth" being propagated by the religious right. Here's a question for you, Sammy. If this country was truly founded as a "Christian nation," then why was the word God left out of the constitution completely? What kind of morons wanting to form a Christian nation wouldn't even put the word God in their foundation document? And why was religion mentioned only once and that to state that no religious test shall ever be required as a condition of holding public office (Article VI, Section 3)?
SAMMY: <Given the fact that the first 10 presidents swore on the Bible opened to Deuteronomy 28 when they took the oath of office, I seriously doubt you even know the Christian history of the founding of this nation. It wasn't until the 20th century that the Supreme Court used "religion" in a different context to recognize other religions as having the same "status" as the Xtian faith.>
TILL: How do you happen to know this? I'd like to see your source. The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, NY, said in a sermon delivered in October 1831 and reprinted in its entirety in *The Albany Daily Advertiser* that "the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels" and that "of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Jackson] *not a one had professed belief in Christianity.*" I have a suggestion for you, Sammy. Why don't you try reading the works of real historians like Boller, Rossiter, Schlesinger, etc.? You just might get a more balanced view of our national history. Eighteenth and 19th-century preachers condemned our founding fathers and early presidents for their lack of Christian faith. Preachers today try to make them into Christian saints. It's a pathetic attempt to rewrite history by desperate preachers who have no facts on their side.
There's much more I could say on this subject, but this is enough to keep you busy for a long time.